A July 1, 1999 interview with Antony C. Sutton
Antony Sutton’s first booklet on the Order of Skull & Bones, printed in Phoenix Arizona in 1983. The booklet became part of America’s Secret Establishment — An Introduction to the Order of Skull & Bones, which has stayed in print since 1986, becoming an underground classic.
Interviewers: Kris Millegan, Al Hidell, & David Guyatt
Well, now, ain’t life grand here in these United States. Now, I don’t know but I do believe I am being told, by our corporate media, that George W Bush is gonna be the next president and there ain’t nothing us peons can do about it. W’s already got the cash and all the friends a guy could want. Billy-boy has shown that personal peccadilloes don’t matter. And, gee whiz, W’s were just youthful indiscretions anyway.
The Mighty Wurlitzer is playing loud and strong; Project Mockingbird has come home to roost and it looks as though a foreign secret society will for the third time put their juvenile in the White House. The latest spin has W just being a president of his ol’ college frat house, DKE, who maybe did some strange initiation rituals … Yeah, right. Ya wanna buy a bridge?
George W Bush is a member of a 167-year-old secret society at Yale University, Skull & Bones. The Order of Skull & Bones has been shown to be founded as a chapter of a secret society based in Germany. Some say it is just a college club; other say much more and point to W’s grandfather’s filching of Geronimo’s remains; of the financing of Nazis and Communism; of drug smuggling; of eugenics; of manipulation of our social and political arenas through the Hegelian method of thesis, antithesis — resulting towards the desired synthesis — a New World Order, and more … .
But then this is not just a story about W, or Skull & Bones, but also the story of a courageous man, his dutiful journey and consequent battles with the ‘powers-that-be.’
Sutton and Millegan - July, 2000
Antony C. Sutton, Feb. 14, 1925 - June 17, 2002, has been persecuted but never prosecuted for his research and subsequent publishing of his findings. His mainstream career was shattered by his devotion towards uncovering the truth. In 1968, his Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development was published by The Hoover Institute at Stanford University. Sutton showed how the Soviet state’s technological and manufacturing base, which was then engaged in supplying the North Vietnamese the armaments and supplies to kill and wound American soldiers, was built by US firms and mostly paid for by the US taxpayers. From their largest steel and iron plant, to automobile manufacturing equipment, to precision ball-bearings and computers, the majority of the Soviet’s large industrial enterprises had been built with the United States help or technical assistance.
Professor Richard Pipes, of Harvard, said in his book, Survival Is Not Enough: Soviet Realities and America’s Future (Simon & Schuster; 1984):
“In his three-volume detailed account of Soviet Purchases of Western Equipment and Technology … [Antony] Sutton comes to conclusions that are uncomfortable for many businessmen and economists. For this reason his work tends to be either dismissed out of hand as extreme or, more often, simply ignored.”
The reportage was too much and Sutton’s career as a well-paid member of the academic establishment was under attack and he was told that he “would not survive.”
His work led him to more questions than answers. “Why had the US built-up it’s enemy? Why did the US build-up the Soviet Union, while we also transferred technology to Hitler’s Germany? Why does Washington want to conceal these facts?”
Sutton, following his leads, proceeded to research and write his outstanding Wall Street financial expose series Wall Street and FDR; Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler; and Wall Street and The Bolshevik Revolution.
Then, someone sent Antony a membership list of Skull & Bones and … “a picture jumped out.” And what a picture! A multigenerational foreign-based secret society with fingers in all kinds of pies and roots going back to Illuminati influences in 1830’s Germany.
And what a list of members, accomplishments and … skullduggery!
Here, in a rare interview by email, are Antony Sutton’s own reflections and answers to questions from myself and other researchers:
Remember, all my papers on this are in deep storage 1000 miles away and cannot be accessed and I’ve not even thought about S&B for 15 years. I had no idea that any interest had been aroused out there. I know the book is a steady seller from the royalty reports; but that is all.
For the last 10 years I have been in complete seclusion working on future technology … I’m more engineer than historian. The only visitors I’ve had or meetings have been with three-letter agency people, who arrive on the doorstep unannounced and complain I am hard to find. Big Brother has the ability apparently to find anyone.
Nothing mysterious about this, I just dislike publicity and social interaction. You will see from the Dutch TV episode that my work still upsets the powers-that-be so these are merely reasonable precautions.
KM - Can you tell the story of how you learned about Skull & Bones, and how you felt?
AS - I knew nothing of S&B until I received a letter in the early 80’s asking if I would like to look at a genuine membership list. For no real reason I said yes. It was agreed to send the package by Federal Express and I could keep it for 24 hours, it had to be returned to the safe. It was a “black bag” job by a family member disgusted with their activities.
For the benefit of any S&B members who may read and doubt the statement; the membership list is in two volumes, black leather bound. Living members and deceased members in separate volumes. Very handsome books.
I spent all night in Kinko’s, Santa Cruz, copied the entire volumes and returned within the 24 hour period.
I have never released any copies or identified the source. I figured each copy could be coded and enable S&B to trace the leak.
How did I feel? I felt then (as I do now} that these “prominent” men are really immature juveniles at heart. The horrible reality is that these little boys have been dominant in their influence in world affairs. No wonder we have wars and violence. Skull & Bones is the symbol of terrorist violence, pirates, the SS Deaths Head Division in WW Two, labels on poison bottles and so on.
I kept the stack of xeroxed sheets for quite a while before I looked at them—when I did look—a picture jumped out, THIS was a significant part of the so called establishment. No wonder the world has problems!
KM - What is the percentage of active members?
AS - I haven’t checked for 15 years … it used to be about one quarter. With the rise of the Bush dynasty it will increase somewhat, as they climb on the bandwagon. The Demos had their turn with Harriman in the 40’s and 50’s.
KM - How many active members are there?
AS - Usually about 600 alive at any one time … recently more active.
KM - What is your take on the grandfather clock that each member allegedly receives?
AS - They do get a clock. I’ve had that confirmed and you will see it in the photos in ASE (America’s Secret Establishment). Might be symbolic, perhaps to state their organization goes on timelessly.
KM - Has Skull and Bones lost its clout?
AS - Well look at the recent fund-raiser for George Bush … Republicans are stuffing money into his pockets … I suggest members recently got behind one of their own and decided to push George all out for president … and Democrats can’t do a thing because Democrat Bones are not going to allow the Party to use the ultimate weapon … George’s membership in a foreign secret society.
KM - What do you know of George W Bush?
AS - He is a third generation Bonesman. My personal impression is that he doesn’t have the drive of his father or the skills of his grandfather … but I could be very wrong. He can beat anyone hands down — EXCEPT VENTURA.
If Bush handlers allow a face to face debate between Bush and Ventura. Ventura will win. Remember Ventura has admitted to his so-called “sins.” Bush has a closet-full waiting to emerge. People are getting bored with cover ups and spin.
2000 may see the end of the Bones influence or — reality that these Bones people are powerful.
KM - Is the name of the German group known?
AS - Almost certainly Illuminati.
KM - Some people say that there are other cells; what do you think?
AS - There are many other secret societies. I’ve only looked at S&B. Unfortunately no historian will keep his job if he tries to explore conspiracy … this is taboo for the American Historical Association. Sooner or later outsiders will take a look. I’ve long thought that S&B fits the legal definition of a conspiracy and needs to be officially investigated.
Yes there should be other cells. No secret society worth anything is going to keep its inner actions written down on paper. If the gigantic electronic monitoring apparatus is for national security purposes, then it should be monitoring these people 24 hours a day.
KM - What are your thoughts on Wolf’s Head? Scroll & Key? And the other Senior societies at Yale?
AS - Wolfs Head, Scroll and Key seem to be pale imitations of S&B, but they have the same objective of deliberately building discrimination into a society. I listened to Jesse Ventura last night and he made the point that the Founding Fathers intended for CITIZENS to represent the people. I agree; a trucker, a farmer, a teacher represent the people not a bunch of professional pols or a secret society like S&B. All these societies place their own members ahead of the pack and give preference to their own members; this is discrimination par excellence.
KM - Have you read Cathy O’Brien’s book Tranceformation Of America? What do think of it?
AS - The book does not contain one piece of hard physical evidence.. I think Cathy O’Brien BELIEVES SHE IS TELLING THE TRUTH … but remember that Mark Phillips is a skilled neuro-linguistic-programmer.
Another point that really concerns me is this … where did this story originate? It originated in Communist Chinese Intelligence and Mark Phillips had a contractual relationship with the ChiComs. This could be an attempt to destabilize the US.
No doubt these Washington pols are fully capable of these weird practices, just look at Bohemian Grove but that doesn’t mean that the book is an accurate portrayal. If the book is credible, I would think the police would have raided Bohemian Grove long ago
My best guess is that the Chinese picked up whispers of Washington scandals and blew them out of proportion for their own purposes. This is a GUESS … I don’t know.
One thing that puzzled me, with all these sexual shenanigans how do Washington politicians find time to do anything else? According to the book this is a full time occupation for Senator Byrd and others.
KM - What did your study of elites, economics, secrecy and technology do for your career?
AS - Depends what you mean by career?
By conventional standards I am an abject failure. I’ve been thrown out of two major Universities (UCLA and Stanford), denied tenure at Cal State Los Angeles. Every time I write something, it appears to offend someone in the Establishment and they throw me to the wolves.
On the other hand I’ve written 26 books, published a couple of newsletters and so on … even more important I’ve never compromised on the truth, and I don’t quit.
In material terms … hopeless failure. In terms of discovery … I think I’ve been successful. Judge a man by his enemies. William Buckley called me a “jerk.” Glenn Campbell, former Director of the Hoover Institution, Stanford called me “a problem.”
KM - Do you believe that there has been suppression of technology? Has it been major or minor?
AS - Yes there has been suppression but its going to be impossible to suppress the new emerging paradigm.
KM - The Federal Reserve, the House of Morgan, House of Rothschild and Skull and Bones are they related?
AS - Best source for this is my book The Federal Reserve Conspiracy.
KM - What are the good source materials for your research and writings about Skull and Bone’s influencing John Dewey and Horace Mann?
AS - Depends what you want to find. You could explore the 10 or so volume works of Dewey … outrageous Hegelianism, the state is supreme, the individual merely a pawn to be trained. This is the basis of our ‘educational system” …or you could go and explore the members of S&B who brought the system to the US.
This trained “sausage mind” outlook has thoroughly permeated our universities … that’s why we have the peer review system … we are all supposed to think alike and find the same answers. This political correctness garbage is another step to total thought control.
AH - Did any of Hitler’s economic policies threaten the interests of the international bankers, and if so did that play a role in his downfall?
AS - Hitler’s economic policies were OK’d by the bankers right through the war … ITT, Chase, Texaco and others were operating in Nazi-held France as late as 1945. In fact Chase in Paris was trying to get Nazi accounts as late as 1944. When we got to Germany in May, 1945, I remember seeing a (bombed-out) Woolworth store in Hamburg and thinking, “What’s Woolworth doing in Nazi Germany?” While we were bombed and shelled it was “business as usual” for Big Business. Try the Alien Custodian Papers.
See my Best Enemy Money Can Buy for more.
Union Banking is very important. I made a documentary for Dutch National TV some years ago. It got all the way through the production process to the Dutch TV Guide … at the last minute it was pulled and another film substituted. This documentary has proof of Bush financing Hitler — documents.
Maybe my Dutch friends will still get it viewed, but the apparatus reaches into Holland.
KM - What is the story that was going to be told on Dutch TV? And what is the story of it’s censorship?
AS - Couple of years back, a Dutch TV production company from Amsterdam — under contract to Dutch National TV—came to the US to make a documentary on S&B. They went to the Bones Temple and other places and interviewed people on the East Coast. On the West Coast, they interviewed myself and one other person.
I saw extracts from the original and it is a good professional job. They had documents linking the Bush family and other S&B members to financing Hitler through Union Banking of New York and its Dutch correspondent bank. More than I have in Wall Street And The Rise Of Hitler.
The first version was later upgraded into a two part documentary and scheduled for showing this last March. It was pulled at the last minute and has never been shown.
AH - Who has been financing Milosevic, and what role has the international banking community played in the Balkans?
AS - I haven’t looked at this one. Of course the notorious Black Hand society is located in the Balkans. See WW One.
DG - What is the importance of your work on Skull and Bones?
AS - The potential is extraordinary. IF we find that secret societies are indeed significant, the entire history of the last two centuries will have to be re-written.
At this point in 1999, the potential has not been explored by others and I’ve moved back to my original interest—technology. Apparently people see some merit in the work. It is never advertised. It is an underground word of mouth distribution but has sold steadily from 1986 to date. Every month I get a royalty check, so I know it is selling. But my original enthusiastic statement has not been fulfilled.
KM - What do you see for the future?
AS - Chaos, confusion and ultimately a battle between the individual and the State.
The individual is the stronger; and will win. The state is a fiction sanctified by Hegel and his followers to CONTROL the individual.
Sooner or later people will wake up. First we have to dump the trap of right and left, this is a Hegelian trap to divide and control. The battle is not between right and left; it is between us and them.
The message is getting through. ASE has sold for 15 years, small but steady. No advertising. Its an underground work. But the breadth of interest is amazing. From Black Africa, to Russia (12,000 copies), right, left … it cuts across all ethnic, political, social lines..
The spirit of God is within us as individuals. Skull & Bones represents death. It has no life spirit and pretends that the State “is the march of God on earth.”
The thinking of immature juveniles, deadly and destructive and has almost totally infected Washington.
What to do? Find yourself and then go to work … tell your friends and put out the message.
The answer is within you.
In talking to a magazine in New York that is working on a feature story on George W. Bush and was thinking of doing a piece on S&B, I asked how about a sidebar on Antony Sutton? And got these responses:
“Someone is claiming he’s a John Bircher. Liberty House is a right wing publishing company in Montana.
“Antony Sutton was at Stanford’s conservative Hoover Institute.
“Among many other claims, Sutton’s book accuses Skull and Bones of funding and encouraging ‘the Maxist/Leftist ‘60s revolution’… and diverting attention by drawing students into disarmament and/or environmental groups and issues.
“Although there seems to be some real info in his book, it reads like a classic text of right-wing propaganda, filled with hyperbole and unsourced allegations.”
Antony Sutton’s response:
What’s wrong with these editors?
I was thrown out of the Hoover Institution by the CIA types … I am definitely persona non-grata. Director Glenn Campbell actually threatened me “you will not survive.”
Some right winger!!
I’ve never been a member of the Birch Society or any society come to that.
I’d like to have that Editor say that to my face. They’re sick!
Get his comments on the above … and have him come up with some proof.
What’s the legal definition of slander … it has to be untrue and malicious. Do they have any money?
When it comes right down to it the NY people didn’t even read my book … else they would know that I see the right-left approach as a Hegelian trap … as for lack of evidence I’ll leave that to the readers. On second thought they probably never heard of Hegel.
When Lenin referred to ‘useful idiots” he must have had these people in mind.
KM - What has surprised you the most about America’s Secret Establishment?
AS - The most astonishing aspect of ASE is that the damn thing keeps selling with no advertising, no publicity, no help from me or the publisher. Astonishing and gratifying. It means that some readers see enough of value to pass the word. In terms of S&B discovery, nothing until very recently. I turned to other work (technology) and forgot about S&B. Recently I found extraordinary work by unknown people from the genealogical angle, This is definitely an advance.
All the royal families of Europe stem from the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, that is where Weishaupt was installed. Its a 2 prong attack (1) via royal families and their descendents (2) via secret societies … and the almighty State is the vehicle using dialectic methods.
KM - Was there any reaction from Bones to your writings about the Order?
AS - The material was removed from Yale Library promptly after the first edition was published in 1983, say within 4-6 months … Members of S&B tried to make contact after about a year but both used phony names with their REAL ADDRESS, so I could find their real names. The content of their letters alerted me to check. Amateurs … .
KM - What was that material and did you make any copies?
AS - From memory, it was about a magazine file thick, say 5 inches. Letters mostly, I selected a few for the book.
These materials still exist but so deeply hidden that it would cost several thousand dollars and much negotiation to regain. The holders don’t know what they have and I don’t know exactly where the material is. You can’t say our spooky friends didn’t teach us something … .
KM - What do you think S&B is planning now?
AS - Plans ? I don’t know. They look at the world through filters and “yes men.” So while they have excellent information, they are dangerously off track in assessing the ordinary man. Their assumption is that they can buy, cajole or steal what they want and that everyone will go along. I see them as myopic juveniles ….
KM - Did ASE cause you any trouble?
AS - From this book? Not at all … The fireworks came much earlier in the early 1970’s after publication of National Suicide (now Best Enemy Money Can Buy!).
I am not looking for anything. Socially they are boring, so there is no basis for any discussion. One day they will hit a big bump in the road. Nothing to do with me.
KM - Any last words?
AS - Watch as events unfold. We are observers. They will destroy themselves. We can help a little but don’t get any bright ideas about overturning the system. They have all the bombs but we have something stronger — the truth and freedom of spirit.
Be patient, spread the word among friends, do your little bit. The system will self destruct because it is founded on corruption and untruth.
*
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Antony Sutton passed away on June 17, 2002. According to published accounts June 17th, 1933, was the date of the Order of Skull & Bone’s Century Celebration. His death was sudden and unexpected. He was 77 and the local county coroner declared his passing, natural causes. Even after repeated contacts and pleas, no newspaper ran an obituary or story about his death and works. Tony died less than three weeks after the first hardbound copies of America’s Secret Establishment were delivered from the printer. He was getting ready and was excited about appearing on radio shows to promote the book. The book was to be in West-Coast bookstores in September. Tony’s death and a national book distribution opportunity changed the limited fall 2002 release to a national 2003 spring release. Meanwhile Little & Brown moved Alexandra Robbins’ book (the first ever mainstream book on Bones) up to September, 2002 from January, 2003. Her book, Secrets of the Tomb, gets placed in the history section, whilst Tony’s book gets placed in the speculation section with UFO’s and such. Hmm, a book written by a member of the second oldest secret society at Yale, which declares Bones to be “the equivalent to the Wizard of Oz,” that sometimes “Oz needed its Wizard” and disposes of the Nazi financing issue in one terse sentence is declared history, but a college professor’s work on the same topic, that was the first book written about Bones and breaks many stories and research is just speculation. Such are the times we live in.
Antony had gone back to his engineering background and was producing a newsletter called Future Technology Intelligence Review (FTIR). Following is Tony’s memoir about Stanford, some of his background and what happened to him because of his principles and courageous actions. After that are some of his thoughts on the September 11th attack and writings on the Order of Skull & Bones from FTIR and then some articles from The Phoenix Newsletter, Tony’s newsletter from the 1980s and 90s, some from the time when he was first uncovering the story about Bones. The writing style is of a newsletter and that has been preserved, most of his underlined words and capitals have been turned to italics for presentation in book form
For more information about Antony Sutton visit: www.AntonySutton.com
