Karen Holloway looked at herself in the mirror of the greenroom at CNN in Los Angeles, where she was waiting before being interviewed by Anderson Cooper. For a brief moment her anxiety subsided and her nerves faded when she noticed that her hair and face looked better than they usually did. The makeup people and stylists had touched her up, but beyond that, she felt she was looking better than she had in a long while. She wondered if this was the glow of pregnancy that she’d heard about, and although the prospect of what she was about to do still made her nervous, she was glad that at least she would look good doing it.
Tanya, who was there with Karen, said, “You look fine.”
Karen said, “I know. I actually think I look pretty fucking good.”
Tanya said, “I still can’t believe your parents aren’t here for this.”
Karen said, “I didn’t want them to come. When my name got leaked, that phone call was bad enough. I couldn’t have my mom here right now telling me that I’m making the biggest mistake of my life—not right before I go on TV.”
Tanya said, “But at some point you have to have more than just a phone call with them.”
Karen said, “I know. I know. But not right now. I need to focus on this. I know it sounds stupid or arrogant, but I think what I’m about to do could potentially be really important.”
Tanya said, “It doesn’t sound stupid or arrogant. I think you’re right. I think what you’re doing is pretty terrible on a moral level, but it’s undeniable that people are interested. Whatever you’re going to say tonight, there will be a lot of people listening.”
Karen had thought a lot about whether this interview was a good or a bad idea, but she eventually decided it was better to have more exposure and be able to explain herself to the public than it was to remain silent and allow all the media conjecture about her to continue. Her identity was already in the world, and putting a voice to it seemed to be only beneficial.
The day before, she’d been emailed a series of questions that she might be asked during the interview. So she stayed up late, formulating her answers and memorizing the various talking points she wanted to be able to mention if possible. By the time she left for the interview, she felt as ready as she could be for her first appearance on national television.
A producer came into the greenroom to tell her it was time to go to the set. After Tanya gave her a hug and wished her luck, Karen followed the producer outside, where someone clipped a microphone onto her collar, and then she was led to the set. As she sat down across the table from an empty chair, she took a deep breath. She knew this moment was in some ways more important than whatever would happen with the site and the money.
Anderson Cooper stepped out onto the stage and introduced himself to Karen. He said, “Hi, nice to meet you.”
Even if God wasn’t real, most people in the world believed he was, so the effect of God on humanity was still very real, and that was something worth understanding. Science and the growth of knowledge were important, but no more or less important than the various forms of human artistic endeavors. Sexuality was one of our most primary motivations, but certainly not the only one, and it was something no one had any control over in their lives. Discrimination based on these preferences was still very much a part of American culture, and although this discrimination was fading, it wasn’t fading fast enough. Raising children, like sexual orientation, was merely a preference that varied from person to person, and sex was linked to this preference only in the most basic concrete sense. These were things that Anderson understood to be true.
Karen said, “You too. This is all a bit surreal to me.”
Anderson said, “Well, what you’re doing is all a bit surreal to a lot of people. I’m going to try to make this as easy as possible for you. I really think you deserve to have your voice heard in this, and I want you to be able to get everything out that you want to get out.”
Karen said, “Thanks. That’s great. I mean, that’s all I could ask for.”
Anderson said, “You got some of the questions from one of my producers, but we’ll also be throwing in some Twitter questions at the end. We’ll stay away from any of the outright offensive stuff, obviously, and keep it strictly to valid, fact-based questions or things that are more philosophical in nature—you know, just the pertinent questions.”
Karen said, “That sounds fine to me.”
Anderson said, “Good. Also, I know someone probably already told you this, and I’m sure it won’t be a problem, but we’re live, so no fucks or shits or anything like that. We have a delay, so you’ll get bleeped anyway, but it’s always better if you don’t have to get bleeped.” Then he sat down in the chair across from Karen.
A producer came out and informed them that they had one minute to air. Karen watched Anderson Cooper look over his notes. She looked out and saw camera operators looking into their monitors. She saw people running back and forth in the shadows of the studio. She wondered if this was what every show was like for them. She wondered if they cared at all about the interview that was about to take place, or if it was just one in a long line of interviews that came and went with only fleeting impact. She wondered if most of the world felt that way. Then the lights came up on the stage, and a producer started to count them down. It was happening.
Anderson Cooper looked into the center camera and said, “Good evening. Tonight we have an exclusive interview with arguably the most controversial person in America, maybe the world. Karen Holloway, the UCLA philosophy student who has issued an online challenge to the Christian right of America, is here with me tonight. She’s currently pregnant, and she claims that if she doesn’t get one hundred million dollars in donations through her website, she’ll have an abortion. If she does meet her financial goal, then all the money will be put in a trust fund for the child, who will be given up for adoption. The public have had very different reactions to Karen and what she’s doing. She’s certainly been vilified by the Christian right as well as by many other activist groups, including many women’s rights groups, despite how she says she’s doing this in the name of women’s rights. Others have praised her as a champion of feminism. Tonight we hear her side of the story, in a special live interview here on CNN.”
Anderson Cooper turned to Karen and said, “Karen, thanks for being with us tonight. I know the past few weeks for you have probably been a little crazier than you’re used to.”
Karen said, “Yeah. I never really expected anyone to find out who I was.”
Anderson Cooper said, “Well, let’s start there. Many people have criticized you for trying to remain anonymous. They’ve claimed it was an act of cowardice. Is that true? Were you afraid to have your identity known publicly?”
Karen said, “I’m sitting on your show right now doing this interview. I don’t see how that could be interpreted as fear of my identity being known or cowardice of any kind. The reason I wanted the entire thing to be anonymous is that I wanted the idea, the experiment, to live and die on its own merits. I didn’t want my identity to get in the way of people seeing just how hypocritical the pro-life movement is in this country. Whatever people were thinking or feeling about this whole thing, I didn’t want to become the focus of those feelings. But that seems to be exactly what’s happening anyway.”
Anderson Cooper said, “To some degree I think you’re right, but your site has generated a little over seven million dollars, and looks to keep generating money, so even if some of the attention is focused on you, people are still paying attention to the site and the conversation you’ve started.”
Karen said, “That’s true.”
Anderson Cooper said, “And at the current rate of donations coming in, does it seem to you like you’re going to hit your projected goal of one hundred million dollars?”
Karen said, “It’s impossible to say. The donations have slowed down a bit, but I think there’s also a lull in things like this between the beginning and the end. We saw it with the Affordable Care Act. When the clock starts counting down the last few days, I’ll be very interested to see what happens. Because I know that within the most prominent evangelical churches in the country, there are two camps emerging. One camp is urging their congregations to donate whatever they can. They’re actually sticking to their pro-life philosophy. But the other camp, which I think is the majority of Christians in this country, both evangelical and not, has denounced me and claims that a donation to my site is the wrong thing to do. Which obviously proves my point.”
Anderson Cooper said, “And what is that point exactly?”
Karen said, “Well, it’s just like I said on my site. The Christian right in this country isn’t really pro-life at all. They’re anti-woman. I’m doing something that’s completely legal in our country. I’m exercising my right as a woman, to choose to have a child or not, and for under a dollar each, the pro-life Christians of this country have the ability to make sure that this fetus is carried to term and given a good home, not to mention set up for life. This child, if born, would obviously never have to worry about money in his or her life. But if they fail to meet the goal, then I think it proves they aren’t really interested in human life, they’re far more interested in attempting to control women, by limiting their choices and imposing their own religious mandate on as many people as possible, which is one of several hypocrisies at the root of Christianity. And ultimately I hope that exposing that hypocrisy will help nudge people in the direction of ending religion.”
Anderson Cooper said, “And if you do end up getting the hundred million dollars, will you have any hand in deciding who adopts the baby?”
Karen said, “Well, I’d personally love to see the child go to a gay couple, but I’ve opted to remove myself completely from the adoption process. Statistically, the child is much more likely to go to a Christian family—which should be further incentive for the Christians in this country to donate.”
Anderson Cooper said, “If your financial goal is met, and you have the baby and give it up for adoption, will you want to be a part of the child’s life in any way?”
Karen said, “Not at all.”
Anderson Cooper said, “Why not?”
Karen said, “I decided a long time ago that I didn’t want to have kids, and I think this fetus, should it become a child, would be far better served by parents who really want to have a child.”
Anderson Cooper said, “And what if the child, at some point, gets curious and wants to meet you or wants to be in your life?”
Karen said, “That’s a more difficult question. I wouldn’t want to deprive the child that opportunity to know me or meet me, but I think I’d try my best to stay completely removed.”
Anderson Cooper said, “But do you think you’d even be able to do that? This child, assuming you actually have it, will be a public figure of some sort for his or her entire life. You very likely will be as well. It seems like it would be pretty difficult for either of you to not at least be aware of the other as your lives progress.”
Karen said, “I don’t know if that’s true at all. I think if you don’t want to be a public figure, it’s very easy not to be. I obviously can’t speak for whatever kind of person this child might or might not become, but I know myself, and I have a much stronger desire to see my work’s effect in the public than do I have any desire to see myself as a celebrity of any kind.”
Anderson Cooper said, “Okay. Let’s get to another point you’ve made, which is that your goal isn’t just to prove that the Christian right is hypocritical, but also to nudge people toward the end of religion. Do you really think that’s even possible?”
Karen said, “The end of religion, and the belief in mythologies and fairy tales, is inevitable. We’re already seeing it happen in this country. Every time a new poll comes out about the beliefs of the younger generations, we see that fewer and fewer people affiliate with any organized religion, and more and more people are self-described agnostics. If we know anything from history, it’s that social and technological progress never stops. The belief in a God was something that was beneficial for a very long time for us. When we couldn’t explain why it rained, or what the stars were, it was easy to conjure the idea of a big guy up in the sky who made everything. But today we know that’s not the case, and as technology explains more and more of the universe, and as we move forward socially, becoming less and less tolerant of discrimination against women and homosexuality and other things religion discriminates against, I personally think the writing is on the wall. I mean, women are the largest group of subjugated people on the planet. Even in countries like America, where things are relatively good for women, we still make only seventy-five percent of what a man makes for performing the same job at the same level. It’s still socially expected for a woman to give up her last name upon marriage. And obviously our culture still protects its young men far more than its young women where rape and sexual assault are concerned. And the idea that any of that is okay comes from religion. It comes from the notion that a woman must be subservient to the man, just as it says in not only the Bible but most foundational texts of major religions. And because we allow religious freedom, we feel the need to lend credence to these views. If you discriminate against any group in this country, all you have to do is claim that it’s because of your religious affiliation, and you’re beyond reproach. And this isn’t just about women. Obviously religion has always allowed for open discrimination against homosexuality, race, and a wide number of other things. Religion just doesn’t serve the same purpose it used to—or any purpose, really. Religion is the last bastion of discrimination. I think we’ll all be better off when it’s gone.”
Anderson Cooper said, “But the counterargument to that is that religion, specifically if we’re talking about Christianity here, is that it gives guidelines by which people live their lives—and that in turn helps to ensure order and certain moral values in our society.”
Karen said, “Although that seems like a valid argument, it’s not. All of the religious laws—in the case of Christianity, it’s the Ten Commandments—are subject to context. Take the commandment that I think we’d all agree is the most ironclad, the one that pretty much everyone agrees on: Thou shalt not kill. After Osama bin Laden was killed, your network aired footage of Americans celebrating in the streets. Not only did Americans, most of whom are Christian, not care that a murder had just been committed, they celebrated it. Now, as an atheist, I have no problem with Bin Laden being killed. I think it was a good thing to do. The world is better without him. But if you’re a Christian, whether or not you agree that the world is a better place because of his death, that commandment should obligate you to protest his murder, which violates a direct order from your God. But I think you’d be hard-pressed to find one in ten Christians who would actually support that stance. So in that case even Thou shalt not kill gets thrown out the window.
“And it obviously doesn’t stop with Bin Laden. You have Christian governors in states like Texas and Oklahoma, both of whom are devout Christians, executing people in prison left and right. You have plenty of Christian members of the military killing people every day in the Middle East, and you have Christian citizens here supporting those killings. And I’m not arguing that it makes them bad people to support our military actions. I’m arguing that it makes them bad Christians, or not even Christians at all. Most people aren’t as religious as they think. And that’s okay. Ultimately, if I could have one idea sink into the culture as a result of what I’m doing, it’s that. It’s okay to reject religion openly. Most people already are, in one way or another, but they still identify with the religion they were indoctrinated into when they were young. If there’s no other reason to reject religion, people have to understand that science and technology are really our only hope for the future—especially in a time when we’re facing things like climate change and overpopulation. And I don’t think you can have a religious scientist.”
Anderson Cooper said, “Well, I think there’s evidence to the contrary. There are plenty of scientists who are also religious. Francis Collins, the scientist who mapped the human genome, is famously religious.”
Karen said, “There are absolutely religious people who practice scientific techniques, but they’re not scientists. An actual scientist who has devoted his or her life to the pursuit of truth via the scientific method—I’m talking about making a hypothesis, gathering evidence through experimentation, and drawing a conclusion about that hypothesis—could never logically come to the conclusion that a god exists. There’s literally no factual evidence. To believe in a god, you have to be the type of person who believes that the world and existence is fantastical, that it has mythological elements that are not only real, but more important than the physical elements we can actually interact with and measure. A real scientist simply wouldn’t be able to do that. So, while you can have religious people practicing certain aspects of science, you can never have a scientist who is religious.”
Anderson Cooper said, “That’s kind of a semantics issue, isn’t it?”
Karen said, “I think semantics matter—and I’d guess most people do, too. After all, I’m on this show right now because of semantics. My position is that there’s a fetus growing in me right now, which has no legal right to life because it’s not yet a person. Many other people would claim there’s a human being growing inside of me right now that has the same right to life that you or I do. In some way, semantics is what this entire thing is about.”
Anderson Cooper said, “Fair enough. I’m sure you’re aware that some Republicans in Congress have used what you’re doing to reinvigorate their attempts to make it more difficult for women to get abortions in their states, and in some cases it seems that they’re making more progress than they have in a while. Does it, in any way, make you regret your decision to do this, the fact that you might actually be responsible for setting abortion rights back in some places?”
Karen said, “Well, I don’t regret what I’m doing, and I don’t actually think I’m in any way responsible for setting reproductive rights back. The trend in conservative states to put restrictions on Planned Parenthood and other clinics was ongoing far before I launched this site. Certain states have the unfortunate luck of being run by people who don’t actually want to do the most good for the most citizens. States like Texas have their laws made by old, rich white men doing what they think is in their own best interest. Beyond the horrible way they’ve treated the women of their states, where reproductive rights are concerned, they’ve systematically made it far more difficult, if not impossible, for most minorities—women included—to even vote. Their moves to restrict voting rights are obviously designed to ensure that they stay in power, and to prevent opposing views from being represented in government. To overcome a situation like that, I think it takes something like what I’m doing—a moment that forces people to say to themselves, Wait a minute, we can’t let this happen anymore. I think the harder certain politicians push against reproductive rights, the more of a fight they’re going to have on their hands. And if I have something to do with starting that fight, then I couldn’t be happier. No regrets at all.”
Anderson Cooper said, “What do you think of the people who are calling you a spiritual terrorist?”
Karen said, “Not much. I don’t believe in spirits, so I guess I don’t accept the idea that I could be performing a terrorist act against spirituality. It’s like calling me a unicorn murderer. I’d lump them into the same category as the people who think I’ve been sent to Earth by Satan to give birth to the Antichrist. I’d say it was laughable if it wasn’t a crystal clear example of what I’m trying to expose—the Christian right’s agenda to control women. I’m a woman who is taking absolute control of my body and my rights. Their immediate reaction is to invoke Satan and compare me to a terrorist. And it’s those same Christians, who call me a spiritual terrorist and claim that I’m the mother of the Antichrist, who are urging their congregations not to donate. They use their religion to justify allowing this abortion to happen, the same religion they claim requires them to protect every unborn child’s life. They can’t have it both ways.”
Anderson Cooper said, “I’m curious about this next question. How has this affected your personal life?”
Karen said, “Not very well. I guess that’s accurate.”
Anderson Cooper said, “Can you be a little more specific?”
Karen said, “Well, I had to talk to my parents about it once my identity was revealed, obviously.”
Anderson Cooper said, “And how did that go?”
Karen said, “Again, not very well. They’re not too happy with me. Ultimately I think they support me, because they know this is something I feel very strongly about. At least I hope I made that clear to them when we talked about it. But like any parents, I think they just want what’s best for me, and they see the obvious potential for this to be very stressful.”
Anderson Cooper said, “And what about the father of this baby?”
Karen said, “It’s not a baby. It’s a fetus at this point. But, to answer your question, he’s, uh—he’s sadly one of the relationships that hasn’t survived through this process.”
Anderson Cooper said, “Do you think he’d want to be a part of this child’s life if you were to have the child?”
Karen said, “I can’t speak for him, except to say that he doesn’t want to be a part of any of this, and I’m respecting his decision by not making his name public and not involving him.”
Anderson Cooper said, “Do you know if he’s watching this interview?”
Karen said, “I don’t.” For the first time in the interview, Karen could feel her emotions overriding her intellect. She knew this would be one of the questions she was asked, so she was prepared for it, but the thought of Paul sitting in a new apartment somewhere watching this interview made her sad—because they were no longer together, but also because the image of the man she loved watching her on television as she was forced to speculate on his feelings about her decision seemed emasculating, and she never wanted to think of him that way.
Anderson Cooper said, “Okay, we’ve got a few questions now from Twitter.”
Karen said, “Okay.”
Anderson Cooper said, “The first question is from @joshpaulthorpe. He asks, ‘Have you ever been pregnant before, and if so, have you had abortions before?’”
Karen said, “I’m not sure about the relevance of that question, but the answer is no.”
Anderson Cooper said, “All right, @Revoredo6 tweeted, ‘Does it comfort you or anger you to know that people all over the world are praying for you?’”
Karen said, “Neither. I obviously don’t believe that whatever entity these people are praying to exists, so it’s a waste of time, but it doesn’t anger me. I think anyone and everyone should be allowed to spend their time however they like. I would say, on the issue of prayer in general, though—or, maybe it’s more accurate to say, if you’re a person out there who’s praying, then I’d like to say this to you: If you think your god is listening to you and has the power to do anything, and you’ve never prayed for an end to human misery, war, disease, hunger, or anything of that ilk, then you’re deplorable. If you have prayed to your god to end these things, then your god is deplorable. Either way, prayer seems to me like a waste of time.”
Anderson Cooper said, “Moving on. @ChristianWoman7 asks, ‘If someone else was doing what you were doing, would you donate to her website?’”
Karen said, “No, I wouldn’t. I’m not pro-life in any way, and although I’d think what she was doing was interesting, I wouldn’t donate.”
Anderson Cooper said, “Let me ask you this: Do you think you’ve received money so far from anyone who doesn’t consider themselves pro-life, or from people who are outside of the Christian right?”
Karen said, “I can’t be sure. It’s obviously completely possible. I’m sure there have to be people who aren’t Christian who have donated, but I personally can’t see why anyone who was pro-choice would donate money, outside of a kind of celebrity-culture interest in what’s going on, which is something I wanted to avoid through anonymity. They certainly wouldn’t be donating on philosophical grounds.”
Anderson Cooper said, “All right, and one final question from Twitter. @AprilLavalleyLaw asks, ‘What’s to stop other girls from copycatting this for their own financial gain, instead of for a social experiment?’”
This was something Karen had never thought about, and she paused before answering, “I guess at the moment nothing is stopping them from doing it. I think, though, that this is kind of a self-regulating idea. I have to believe that if someone else did this, and it was expressly for the purpose of making themselves money, very few people would give them money, and any girl who attempted something like this would very quickly find out that it wasn’t worth the effort. And beyond the first girl who attempted it after me, I’d think no one would donate any money anyway. The idea will lose value with each successive attempt.”
Anderson Cooper said, “I think you’re probably right about that. Karen, thank you for sitting down with me tonight. I have to say that no matter what people think of what you’re doing, it definitely seems that you’ve thought this out and that you have a purpose behind it all. I’m sure everyone, myself included, will be following this story to its conclusion, whatever it might be.”
Anderson Cooper then turned back to the center camera and said, “My guest tonight has been Karen Holloway. I’m Anderson Cooper. Thanks for watching, and good night.”
As Karen and Tanya drove back to Karen’s apartment that night, Karen asked her friend what she thought of the interview. Tanya admitted that it was very good, that Karen came off as likable and intelligent. Karen checked her site from her phone and saw that in the course of the interview, a little more than a million dollars had come in.