THE EMPEROR OF FUN

AN INTERVIEW WITH PHIL REED

Matt Forbeck

Phil Reed is known most widely these days as the chief executive officer of Steve Jackson Games, but he’s also a highly regarded game designer, graphic designer, and publisher in his own right. He started in the hobby industry in 1995 and served his first stint with Steve Jackson as, among other things, a production artist, from 1999 to 2004. He subsequently spent plenty of time on projects for other companies, in a variety of roles, giving him the kind of perspective that a lifetime employee of a single company might find hard to cultivate. After running his own publishing venture – Ronin Arts – for a number of years, he returned to Steve Jackson Games in 2007.

In 2008, Phil became the company’s chief operating officer, second only to Steve Jackson himself. He has helped helm the company ever since, guiding it through several of its most productive years, thanks in no small part to the success of Munchkin as a game and as a brand. In late 2014, Steve Jackson moved aside and made Phil the company’s new CEO, in recognition of Phil’s hard work and incredible business acumen.

Honestly, the word coup never came up.

Phil also moves so fast and handles so many things that he’s damn hard to pin down long enough to answer a few friendly questions. I’m told a subpoena might work, but first I’d have to find something to file suit for. Sadly, my attorney doesn’t think emotional distress from having my kids beat the pants off me in Munchkin constitutes solid grounds, even with some judicious judge shopping.

Despite having to give up that excellent Plan A – which would have included Phil answering questions under oath, I point out – I did manage to compile the following interview by contacting Phil via Twitter, Slack, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, WeChat, Medium, text message, Google Hangouts, crossword puzzles in The New York Times, and even an unfortunate experience with AOL Chat.

His responses have been cobbled together into what follows. Some of it might still make sense. The rest of it probably never did. If you’re baffled, just assume the joke somehow went over your head and roll with it. That’s what works for me.

In any case, here’s what Phil had to say about Munchkin as a phenomenon. Just don’t be surprised if he tries to deny some of it.

What makes Munchkin Munchkin? I mean, including games and T-shirts and dice and whatever, when someone sees something with the Munchkin brand on it, what do you think they should expect?

I think they should expect it to be very silly. If they’re not laughing right away, then we’ve probably made a mistake with it. And I like it when they’re surprised. It’s fun when we do something people don’t expect and it still makes them laugh.

That’s better yet. Munchkin started out being available only through specialty game stores. Over the years, it’s gone far broader than that, expanding its reach into all sorts of venues. Where else can we find it now?

Right now, Munchkin is available through several specialty bookstores, through Toys “R” Us, through mass stores like Target and Walmart, and is still available through specialty game and comics stores.

What’s the one place you’d like to see Munchkin for sale where it’s not available – yet?

AAFES stores [Army and Air Force Exchange Stores]. Definitely the AAFES stores. Or maybe Walgreens.

No, I know. CVS. Yep. Definitely has to be 7-Eleven. Wait.

Did you say only one? Can we rephrase the question?

I think you already did. Let’s try another: How many languages is Munchkin available in?

Sixteen or seventeen? I’d have to look it up to know that number exactly. We’ve signed a few new licensees over the past year, and I can’t remember what that brings us to.

Either way, that’s pretty amazing. Any truth to the rumor that Munchkin has been licensed for translation into Klingon?

Klingon? No, no truth to that rumor at all. (Now Huttese . . .)

There’s another rumor going around (that I may have started, just for the purposes of this interview) that the backstabbing action in Munchkin is based upon the Christmas parties at the SJG offices. Any truth to that?

I hate sore losers. I mean, uh, that rumor is a lie. It’s kinda like cake in that sense.

Ouch! Munchkin has been a massive hit, and it seems to keep growing in popularity. What do you do to make that happen – and to keep it happening?

The biggest thing we do is to listen to fan feedback and try to create the sort of things they’re asking for. And we encourage them to keep spreading the game themselves by telling friends about it and even teaching it.

The other big push that’s helped grow the game has been moving into a larger distribution network with mass-market stores like Target and Walmart over the last three or four years.

The metrics we watch include not just the sales of the core Munchkin game but the sales of all the Munchkin supplements, too. We can look back between 2010 and today and see that, not only are the core Munchkin game sales climbing, we’re also seeing a rise in all the expansions.

That’s great news.

Right, and the expansions aren’t available in Target, Walmart, or most Barnes & Noble stores. So we know that many people are finding the basic Munchkin game through those gigantic stores and having enough fun that they’re hunting down local game stores for the expansions.

That’s even better. That means you’re drawing players in from the mass market to the hobby market, which is fantastic. That’s a great growth curve for everybody involved.

Yeah, building the market like that is something we try to do every chance we get. We’ve updated our packaging and advertising over the past two years to include links to the Store and Gamer Finder on our site. We encourage people to use that to find game stores in their area.

I notice you’re even advertising in comic books these days. I saw one in a Batman book.

We’ve been advertising in all Dark Horse comics for three or four years now, and it’s always exciting to see the new Star Wars or Hell-boy comic pop up with our ads in it. Recently, we added some Archie Comics advertising, and we just started advertising in DC Comics, too. That’s a long-term ad contract we signed with DC, so you’ll see those for many months to come.

How does this book (in which this interview will appear) fit in with your plans for Munchkin’s world domination? Or this essay? (And how have I somehow gotten myself tangled in this web?)

We have Munchkin toys, comics, shirts, a Munchkin messenger bag, dice, boardgames, and even zipper pulls. Once, many years ago, there was Munchkin Water. This book gets Munchkin into a completely new category and places another publisher, BenBella, in the position of promoting Munchkin. But, you know, not in a manipulative way at all. That’s right out.

That’s a lot of merchandise. What do you do to tie it back to the game?

Since the very first shirt we created for Munchkin, non-game items have had in-game benefits. We did that in order to play on that whole concept of power gaming and munchkin-ing things. That way, we could encourage fans from our end to go out and buy the T-shirts from partner companies like We Love Fine. (And, again, we really do see these folks as partners. No manipulation involved at all.)

There’s a promotional benefit from just having the fans wear the shirts, of course, but then they get an in-game benefit that we concoct for them, too. We created some promotional bookmarks for Mighty Fine; for other studios that publish licensed Munchkin games; for Funko, who make Munchkin toys. All those give you benefits in the game, so players have another reason to go out and support our partners.

I always thought that was a phenomenal bit of wisdom to say, “Hey, look. This is a game about manipulating the rules to your best advantage – while having fun – and we’re going to do the same thing with the merchandise.” But people laugh about it! They’re aware of what’s going on, and they enjoy it, and they buy the things anyhow. One of my sons bought a Munchkin figure, and he brings it with him to every game.

Ha-ha! Another recruit for the Munchkin army!

The other thing we try to do, if possible, is include a new Munchkin card with those out-of-game items. With BOOM! Studios, for example, the issues of the Munchkin comic book may come bagged with a comic. I mean, with a card! That’s funny! “Yes, the card comes bagged with a comic book!”

For some fans, that’s maybe the right way to put it. When I wrote the Magic: The Gathering comics for IDW, I know that some Magic fans would buy the comics, pull out the cards, and then throw away the comics and walk away with the cards – because that’s all they really wanted.

Well, hopefully the Munchkin fans will read the comic, too, and not just throw it away.

I’m sure most of them will have fun with both of them. After all, that’s the idea. There was a tiny but vocal minority of the Magic fans who did toss the comics, I know.

Yeah, the same thing happened in 1994 or ’95 when Wizards of the Coast created a bunch of Magic cards for various gaming magazines. People would buy six or ten copies just to get the cards.

And that sure sold a lot of magazines! While it’s a shame some people ignore the magazines, hopefully the bulk of them at least gave them a try. Switching to something less depressing than discarded (ouch!) magazines, tell me about the Munchkin Tavern promotion. I know you’ve run it at Gen Con, but has it shown up anywhere else?

It’s shown up a couple years now at Gen Con and one year at Origins, too. The idea was to move into an existing restaurant and brand it with Munchkin. We created menus that had special food items – which were existing items, but with really funny names – and artwork from John Kovalic. We also had placemats and coasters and signage with John’s art on it. It really creates a hangout spot for Munchkin fans when they’re at the convention.

I know my kids have enjoyed visiting it at Gen Con. A lot. Sometimes you need to get away from a big show like that for a little bit to take a break, but it’s wonderful to know you can find a relaxing place based around one of your favorite games just a stone’s throw away. That leads me to my next question. Can you tell me about the Munchkin pop-up store? Steve Jackson Games opened one in New York this year, I believe.

We had a pop-up store during the New York Toy Fair. That’s a three-day event. Steve Jackson came in, John Kovalic came in, and Munchkin czar Andrew Hackard came in. We ran a Munchkin invitational tournament there. We had all kinds of Munchkin goodies for people to buy, and some free stuff we handed out.

The idea goes back again to “How do we make Munchkin bigger?” Well, in this instance, the pop-up store was on Restaurant Row in Manhattan, on 46th Street. The timing overlapped with New York Toy Fair, so while various buyers from different stores and chains were at the convention and going out to eat dinner, there was a chance they’d walk by and see this Munchkin store.

Which could give them all sorts of great ideas. That sounds like a wonderful bit of cross-marketing for you. Hopefully you got regular people wandering by who stopped to check out the store, too.

We were hoping we would get a lot of the Munchkin fans in the area to come on out and join us. Steve and John and Andrew don’t really get to that part of the country together much. When I go to things like New York Comic Con, the fans always ask me, “When’s Steve going to come out? When’s John going to come out?” So, this was kind of like killing two munchkins with one stone. It all went very well.

What’s the craziest idea for a Munchkin project or item you’ve had to axe?

Last year I would have said “Munchkin store,” but I can now scratch that off the bucket list. I think second craziest (besides a Munchkin convention) would have to be a Munchkin animated Christmas special. I outlined the release idea, put some energy into tracking down costs, and even went so far as to describe the rough plot of the special. I think it turned out that we needed to increase Munchkin sales to something like twenty times the current monthly rate in order to make such a dream a reality.

The DVD/Blu-ray/4K/LaserDisc release, of course, would have included new Munchkin cards.

I still want to make this happen.

At least! I also noticed that Munchkin is invading other games now, with Munchkin editions of fantastic games like Castle Panic, Love Letter, and Gloom. How does that work? How do you apply Munchkin to these different kinds of games?

There’s also Munchkin Smash Up.

Better yet.

In general, the idea is to take a fun game and then Munchkin-ize it by twisting things around. For instance, Castle Panic is, at its core, a very cooperative game with everyone working together to protect the castle from monsters. In Munchkin Panic, you’re still working together to protect the castle, but there’s going to be backstabbing involved because you want to make sure not only do you as a group win but that you personally do better than everybody else.

So we take these great games and Munchkin-ize them by bringing in some of those backstabbing and treasure-hunting and backand-forth elements you see in regular Munchkin games. This really comes out of an earlier idea I wish we could have proceeded with: the Munchkin-izer. This was an idea for a package of accessories you could use with any game to add a little bit of Munchkin flavor to it.

That sounds like that would have been hilarious.

I hope we can still get to it one of these days because I think it’d be funny.

It would definitely improve Monopoly, at the very least.

Don’t let Steve hear you say that. He’s a huge fan of Monopoly!

I’m sorry to hear that. I have a long rant about how Monopoly is one of the worst games that everyone’s played. Steve and I will have to have that out at some point.

I think that would make a great YouTube video to watch.

Ha! We’ll have to set up a brawl in a ring or something at our next convention together. Let’s get meta for a moment: How would you go about Munchkin-izing Munchkin?

I’m sorry. We make it a company policy not to discuss unannounced projects.

Of course not! Beyond that, though, I know you have the Munchkin Level Counter for iOS and Android. We’ve seen excellent versions of Magic: The Gathering and Settlers of Catan, plus countless other translations of tabletop games into video games. Any plans to do electronic versions of Munchkin?

That subject comes up a lot, but we keep running into two major problems. Time is the big one. There are so many different Munchkin things going on, and a video game would really require the kind of focus we just can’t provide right now. The other one is that a lot of Munchkin is subject to player interpretation. A computer game isn’t going to allow that to happen. I mean, there are times when we’re working on new Munchkin rules, and Steve and Andrew will tweak things just enough so that a rule is clear, but also so that you could read it in another way that allows you to argue about it with the other players so you can convince them that it actually means something else.

Right! That’s part of the game’s charm. It captures one of the original RPG tropes that Munchkin is based upon. You can stop and say, “Wait a minute! Because this is in my self-interest, I think this rule should be interpreted this way.” Of course, the other players are going to want to do it another way.

Yeah! And a computer game isn’t going to be able to allow that kind of give and take. They’re not designed to be that variable.

So you must have lots of great ideas that you just haven’t had time to implement for Munchkin.

So many! For one, we wanted to produce fortune cookies that each had a Munchkin rule in them.

That would have been fantastic! And hopefully delicious.

Mostly we just can’t get to all the ideas because of time constraints. It’s a lot easier to sit down and brainstorm up new promotional ideas than it is to actually sit down and create them all. It’s more important that we keep the game in print and make sure that there are new expansions in the works than it is to chase down every fun idea we come up with.

Well, hopefully the team can find a bit more time now that you’ve become CEO. Speaking of which, what does this mean for Steve? What’s he doing these days?

Currently, he’s on a very long break. His first real break in over thirty years. After that, he’ll decide what he wants to do. I’m hoping he decides he wants to leave more of the business stuff on my plate and take on more of the creative stuff himself, having fun and going to conventions and the like.

That sounds like it would fit everyone involved really well. If he wants to take a break of any length, he’s certainly earned it, but having him charge back into the creative side would keep the fans happy, too.

Oh, he hasn’t stepped back too much. We were talking about a new license over dinner the other day, and when I got up the next morning, I had a new game from Steve waiting for me in my email inbox.

Of course! And that’s just how it should be. Hey, now that you’re the CEO, does this mean you can create new cards and rules on the fly like Steve’s been known to do? And will you use that power for evil or for good?

Shhhh. I have been doing this at conventions for years. And I only ever use my powers for one purpose: to entertain myself.

 

Matt Forbeck is an award-winning and New York Times best-selling author and game designer with 30 novels and countless games published to date. His latest work includes the novel Halo: New Blood, the Magic: The Gathering comics, the 2014 edition of The Marvel Encyclopedia, the Monster Academy YA fantasy novels, and the upcoming Shotguns & Sorcery roleplaying game based on his novels. He lives in Beloit, Wisconsin, with his wife and five backstabbing children, including a set of conniving quadruplets. For more about him and his work, visit Forbeck.com.