INTERVIEW BY LARRY KEETER
JOURNAL OF DEVELOPMENTAL EDUCATION
JANUARY 1987
Former Congresswoman Shirley Chisholm holds the Purington Chair of Anthropology and Sociology at Mount Holyoke College, the oldest women’s college in America. She recently spoke at Appalachian State University on “Women and Minorities as Policymakers in the U.S.: A Contemporary Perspective.” She also led a faculty-student seminar on “The Minority Student at Risk: The Effects of Racism on the College Campus.” —Larry Keeter, 1987
LARRY KEETER: Professor Chisholm, we have recently heard reports that the number of minority students, and particularly the number of black students, is decreasing on American college campuses. From your background and experience, why is this happening?
SHIRLEY CHISHOLM: The first factor at work here is the economic period we now face. The fathers of many, many black families are out of work. These men were recent arrivals in the workforce who became part of the “last hired, last fired” syndrome in spite of their business, technical or academic training.
A good many of these men, too, were making from $25,000 to $50,000 per year, and some of their sons and daughters were enrolled in private black institutions that cost from $10,000 to $14,000 per year. If a father paid 50 to 55 percent of his child’s tuition and fees but became unemployed, the student has no choice but to drop out of college, for no school, black or white, can pick up that amount of slack. We see this kind of dropping out going on all over this country, and it’s very much tied to the economic picture of blacks.
KEETER: Does that mean, then, that if we are to improve access to education for blacks and other minorities, then we must further address the economic aspects of black students’ lives? There is a belief on some campuses that black students are being coddled; some students feel that way, and to a surprising degree, so do some administrations and faculty. These people believe that black students already get preferential treatment and financial aid. What can be done about this pervasive attitude?
CHISHOLM: Oh, I know that, yes I do. Whether people want to recognize it or not, the overwhelming majority of minority students come from the bottom of the nation’s economic scale. Their families are at or below the poverty line. They are consistently and persistently at the bottom because of historical and economic reasons.
The financial aid programs, on the other hand, were set up to help those at the bottom of the economic scale. So these students’ family incomes fit into the financial aid formula more readily than do those of white students. And I don’t argue with the way the financial aid works out to support black students. We need mechanisms that will help overcome their backgrounds, or it may never happen.
People need to understand that this has nothing to do with preferential treatment. Let’s say we have two students: Sally, a white student, and Tom, a black student. Whose family has the highest income? Overall, and generally speaking, Sally’s family makes more money than Tom’s, so Tom receives more financial aid. It’s a simple matter of economics. And if the financial aid is cut, as the current administration wants, who is more likely to drop out of school? Tom is; Sally’s family is much more likely to be able to make up for the lost financial aid. It’s an issue of economics, not an issue of race.
KEETER: How can the colleges and universities better serve these students to succeed academically and socially? What kind of climate and educational programs can we develop that will provide better support for minority students?
CHISHOLM: Colleges and universities, as institutions, can certainly help minority students cope with their new environment. During the first or second week of classes, the president or the vice presidents should call every freshman student into a large auditorium and lay out some policies in a way that students will understand, and make it clear that each student is there to get an education. This leader must state very carefully and specifically how the minority students will be treated on campus, how the white students will be treated on campus, and then impress students that this is important to the life of the school.
A person at the top must let the freshmen know that racist attitudes and actions will not be tolerated on the campus and that one group will not be favored over another. There should be a grievance system to handle complaints from students and give redress for any wrongs. The tone must be set by a top administrator who makes clear the expectations set forth by the institution. And no milquetoast about it!
KEETER: This could be part of freshman orientation.
CHISHOLM: Yes, it needs to be done early. I’ve seen college campuses festering with racism, and some administrators just closing their eyes to it. It’s an uncomfortable issue, and they just hope it will go away. But it doesn’t go away—it gets worse. As I see it, the top administration must take an active role.
There are three or four other things that can be done, too. I’ve thought about this for a long time, and I believe that one of the most important actions is that colleges and universities mandate certain courses which must be taken by all students. One of those courses should be the history of black people. It’s very important for whites to learn this kind of information; when people understand the development of a situation, have some knowledge and background to apply to understanding it, they have more tolerance. Mandating the course is important, because given the choice, few white students will take black history or a black studies course.
Secondly, the colleges must diligently encourage black and white students to stop isolating themselves from each other. Students need joint programs; right now we have a black studies club, or the Harriet Tubman Society or an Italian club, lots of groups on campus. These serve to reinforce the members and provide certain kinds of support to them, of course, but there must also be opportunities on campus for students to mingle. I think this should be arranged by representatives of different groups; if it doesn’t happen, the hostility, misunderstandings, skepticism, and suspicions continue to grow. Isolated groups create a sense of psychological security for the participants, but these groups prevent people from getting to know each other as human beings. College and university administrators are in wonderful positions to call upon student leaders and work out ways that these groups can get together and get to know each other better.
Third, I think there should be different kinds of ways that black and white students can have contact. For example, during Black History Week, the university could sponsor a black history contest, with prizes and awards. Both black and whites could participate. This also fosters not only knowledge of black history but a sense of healthy competition.
Minority students also drop out because they’re not able to keep up with their studies. For quite some time now, colleges and universities have failed to budget a fair and reasonable percentage of money for remedial and tutorial programs. Now, I understand that the business of the university is to educate those students who are ready to do college-level work. If the money is limited, which it certainly is nowadays, the university cannot use it to do that which should have been done in high school; money can’t be spent for massive tutorial and remediation programs when budgets are slashed across the board. It’s a hard decision, because when students are not able to get additional help, they fall behind and then drop out. Many minority students need extra help, they fall behind and then drop out. Many minority students need extra help with reading and writing skills and other subjects, and they tell me that they’re not getting the help they need.
What I want is for people to forget about skin color and get students to interact. Right now, black and white students on college campuses are not interacting; they’re suspicious and skeptical of each other. Some black students don’t even want to talk to white students, and vice versa, because their peer groups wouldn’t like it. That’s madness!
You know, this is a very hate-filled society. The colleges and universities must become aware of the kinds of problems and situations that tend to polarize and alienate black and white students. The administration of the postsecondary institution must take the lead and set the tone for the students. Solving these problems must be an ongoing effort: We must try to do something about the problem, then reassemble and talk about the results, and try again.
KEETER: In your experience, are there faculty behaviors that alienate black students or communicate uneasiness? Do faculty sometimes communicate that they have different expectations of black students?
CHISHOLM: I think this is a very important question. Black students have many insecurities and anxieties, and they aren’t at all sure that people really like them. This also applies, to some extent, to dealings with black faculty. Whites—along with blacks—must realize that the era of beneficent paternalism is over. Blacks have become very sensitive, and rightly so, about attitudes of overprotectiveness or someone’s bending over backwards to accommodate them.
Most blacks would rather that you be direct with them about your feelings. Don’t worry about upsetting a black student or faculty member any more than you worry about upsetting anyone else. State the facts, state the case. You’re man to man, you’re woman to woman. Black students are not little children who need special handling so as not to hurt their feelings.
You see, pain is not new to these students, or to these faculty; they’ve been hurt most of their lives by the society in which they must grow. At the same time they resent this beneficent paternalism. Many whites don’t know how to cope with blacks; and they feel uneasy about communicating to individual blacks or a group. I believe that the best approach is simply to be yourself. Be yourself! That’s the best way.
KEETER: We have studies that show that there’s a pervasive silence about the subject of racism on college campuses, especially in the classroom. Why is this silence so uniform? Some say that if you visit American classrooms today, you would think racism no longer exists because nobody talks about it anymore.
CHISHOLM: That’s human nature: Some people think that if you don’t talk about a thing, it will go away. That’s always happened in our society, and it’s a natural human reaction. And people think racism was taken care of in the 1960s.
KEETER: Do you think racism is no longer a problem?
CHISHOLM: Of course racism is still a serious problem; what’s changed is attitudes toward it. I hear people say, “Let’s not talk any more about racism or sexism. Things aren’t like they were twenty years ago. Let’s talk about something else.” Nobody wants to open up Pandora’s box again; we all had enough of Pandora’s box in the 1960s.
KEETER: How can we help college and university faculty to encourage frank discussion of racial topics in the classroom? I think most faculty members are reluctant to discuss racism, yet you’re saying that colleges and universities must take an active role in addressing the issue.
CHISHOLM: I don’t think it’s very successful to deal with the topic directly. It wouldn’t be best for a faculty member to announce that today the class will talk about sexism, and tomorrow slavery, and the next day racism. It would be much better to use parables or special stories as a basis for discussion of these issues. Faculty could use personal experience or a short article or story as a point of departure. I use this approach in my studies of black women in America.
KEETER: What makes this approach work for students?
CHISHOLM: Everybody likes a good story, you know, especially if it’s told by a good storyteller. And students are curious. After I tell a story, I ask them how they saw it, what hit them about the story. They begin to open up, and they get drawn in, sometimes unknowingly, to the issues facing blacks. A good story can catch the imagination, the student’s fantasy, and become a basis for a lesson.
One of the issues we discuss in my classes is why black women are not as interested in the women’s movement in this country as white women are. When an instructor is in control of the classroom situation, she can say things that are sure to provoke reactions from students. I might say, for example, during this discussion, “Oh, black women have not been so enthusiastic about the women’s movement because they know that while white women are not always treated as they should be, at least they have the commonality of being white. Black women see the priority of race over sex as the important thing.” Then I am able to lead the class back into the history of the black people and help the class understand that anything that pulls black women away from solidarity with black men is seen as troublesome. My next controversial statement might be, “So that’s why black women have always been stronger than white women.” And students leap to that, saying, “What do you mean by that, Mrs. Chisholm?”
I like this indirect way of provoking thought. It gets students’ attention, and it starts discussions. The instructor stays in control and can keep coming back to the topic.
KEETER: There’s another form of racism that I’ve heard about on various campuses. Minority students have mentioned it, and they say it happens frequently. They call it the “hate stare.” Do you know about this? Students say that it’s a look that whites use to let blacks know that they’re in the whites’ “territory” or to create general discomfort. Have you seen this happening?
CHISHOLM: Yes, I have, and it’s very annoying to me, even though I’m a fairly mature person. There’s a variant, too, of the hate stare: The whites will walk right past you and then laugh at you.
KEETER: Laugh as though there were something ridiculous about you?
CHISHOLM: No, it’s an arrogant laugh, one that says they detest you. This doesn’t happen when the white person walks by alone; it happens when two or three or more are together. It’s a form of expressing racism, and it happens to me once in a while even now.
On the other hand, black students roll their eyes if white students upset or annoy them. Have you noticed that? It’s a way of showing displeasure, detestation, or a kind of veiled hostility. All students, you know, are human beings, and they all have their different and individual ways of reacting to situations.
KEETER: This hate stare and these snide laughs must surely influence the black students’ perceptions of themselves. Even though all whites don’t treat black students that way, is there a tendency for the blacks to think that people regard them as unwelcome in the classroom or elsewhere on campus?
CHILSHOLM: Oh, yes. Have you noticed that black students are reluctant to speak up in class? Many are afraid of being ridiculed in the classroom like they are outside of it, so they keep quiet. You’d be surprised—many black students feel this way.
KEETER: What are the family pressures on black students? It would seem that when the family at home is making sacrifices to send the child to college and doing without to keep her there, the guilt load must be tremendous.
CHISHOLM: Some black students drop out of college because they can’t deal with this pressure. They experience pressure from their peers and pressures from their families reminding them that they’re maybe the first one in the family ever to go to college, that they’ve got to succeed, that everyone at home is doing without so the student can be educated. “Don’t fool around in college, don’t you come back here with bad grades, don’t you come back here pregnant, don’t you get in with a bad crowd, don’t get on drugs.” The students want to carry home good grades and do well in college, but some just break under the relentless pressure.
KEETER: That sounds like extra pressure that the average white, middle-class student might not experience.
CHISHOLM: That’s right. Every college student faces academic pressures, but minority students face the social pressures resulting from being different and highly visible. Students who aren’t strong, who lack self-confidence, face a very difficult struggle. For instance, we’ve recently been hearing references to the idea that the black race is an inferior race. Students who are feeling inadequate within themselves can really break down when faced with such statements. I’ve seen students go to pieces under this kind of pressure.
KEETER: We’ve spoken about the difficulties that black students have on campus, but what about their strengths? I’ve personally observed that minority students exhibit some strengths that definitely contribute to their success. What kind of strengths do these students develop when they persevere and have commitment and adaptability?
CHISHOLM: Some black students are very knowledgeable about the goals and objectives of which they are a part. They don’t come to school to socialize or be friendly; they come to get an education. These students don’t have time to worry about what white students say to them or about them or the way somebody looks at them. The black peers of these students may be very negative toward them also, for different reasons. The students I’m talking about tend to be the intellectually oriented ones who have great resilience in remaining committed to their goals through the difficulties they experience, and these students are very strong.
Another kind of strength that black students bring to college is family loyalty and support. Now I know I’ve talked about family pressure, but families can also be very supportive. In black families, aunts and uncles and grandparents often contribute to the child’s education. These students are very conscious of the hopes and expectations of their families, and they want to meet those expectations and succeed. This is a kind of family loyalty that gives black students the comfort and strength to get through college.
KEETER: I’ve heard you speak of the strength and commitment you’ve felt because of your upbringing, and how you survived and maintained your commitment and developed your intellect because of your experiences.
CHISHOLM: Yes, I am what I am because of the environment in which I was reared. I was born in this country but grew up in Barbados in the West Indies. My parents returned to America for two purposes: to buy a home for the family, and to give their four daughters a good education. While we were being reared in the islands, we went to school under the British system, which was very highly disciplined. We were reading and writing at ages three and four, and our parents and teachers collaborated to keep us in line. We couldn’t come home from school and complain that the teacher smacked us because Grandmother would give an additional scolding or another smack. Everybody worked together to mold us in preparation of the future. I doubt I would have accomplished what I have in this country if I had not had that kind of discipline; it was an important part of my life.
My grandmother often told me, “Excellence, child, excellence! Not mediocrity. The world is filled with mediocre individuals.” Oh, if I could hear that old lady again—these things were deeply embedded in me, and at a very early age I developed confidence in myself.
When I returned to America, I attended junior high and high school. I was a tiny little thing, and the principal couldn’t understand how this little black girl had such spunk. I asked questions in school without feeling ashamed or embarrassed. In fact, I became somewhat of a nuisance, they thought.
I didn’t know what a nuisance was; I’d been taught that if you don’t know about something, ask. If you don’t understand the answers, ask for an explanation. Was I shy? I didn’t know the meaning of the word. These were my strengths.
KEETER: That’s certainly evident. I’ve heard people comment that you have such confidence, that you will say, before God and your conscience, exactly what’s on your mind.
CHISHOLM: Yes, I’ve always been like that, and that’s part of the reason I was a problem to the politicians. They knew I would raise my hand, ask the question, and be unafraid. I’m not afraid of anything or anybody—no, not at all. The worst that will happen is that someone will tell me No—and I understand that.
KEETER: Thanks, Mrs. Chisholm, for giving us your time and the benefit of your experience.