INTERVIEW BY CAMILLE COSBY
NATIONAL VISIONARY LEADERSHIP PROJECT
MAY 7, 2002
CAMILLE COSBY: Ms. Chisholm, where and when were you born?
SHIRLEY CHISHOLM: I was born in New York, on November 30th, 1924.
COSBY: Did you grow up in New York?
CHISHOLM: No, I did not grow up in New York. I left New York at the age of three and grew up on the island of Barbados in the British West Indies.
COSBY: One of your parents was brought up or lived in Barbados?
CHISHOLM: My mother was born in Barbados and my father was born in British Guyana.
COSBY: Oh, I see.
CHISHOLM: So both of them married and of course, I’m of Caribbean heritage, therefore.
COSBY: What was your childhood like in Barbados?
CHISHOLM: Oh, my childhood, I can remember it. It…it was exciting. We live on a great big farm and we had to take care of all of the animals on the farm—the chickens, the goats, the sheep, the hens, all of the animals on the farm. And I’ll never forget, whenever it rained, and the weather was very, very bad, my responsibility was to go out and really bring the animals into the shade, and I became afraid of lightning because of that.
COSBY: Really?
CHISHOLM: Because whenever I went out to bring the animals in, the lightning would be flashing sometimes, and whenever I get, would go to look at the animals, they would be stiff, they would be standing. And by the time I went over to pick them up and tried to bring them in, they would be dead. And that came from the lightning. The, the lightning was very, very fierce in the West Indies, and from then, even until today, I am scared to death of lightning.
COSBY: Well, apparently you had a lot of freedom on an island such as that. I mean, certainly, you could have freedom of movement, probably it was a communal environment. Is that what you experienced, and, and were you living with someone in the family?
CHISHOLM: I grew up with my maternal grandmother, and my maternal aunt, and my maternal uncle. I went there at the age of three, and I went to the elementary schools in the islands. I did not return to the United States until nine years of age. So I had six years upbringing in the island of Barbados.
COSBY: Fantastic. Good for you. Are you one of several siblings?
CHISHOLM: Yes, I am. I’m the oldest of four girls, and all of us, we received our elementary school in the islands, and I don’t know if this is important or not, but all three of us got scholarships because we were so bright and we had very high IQs. And that is attributable to my rearing in the British West Indies.
COSBY: I see. Because you feel that the school system is superior.
CHISHOLM: Oh, yeah, the school system was fantastic.
COSBY: I see.
CHISHOLM: Really fantastic.
COSBY: Very good. Also, probably because you were in such a supportive environment, that always encourages learning as well.
CHISHOLM: Of course.
COSBY: What was your parents’ economic level?
CHISHOLM: My father was an unskilled laborer, and my mother was a domestic for many, many years. This is why she took us to the West Indies, so that the six years that I grew up in the West Indies, my mom returned to the United States and was a seamstress and took in a lot of sewing for people so she can earn money, and helped my father to get a lot of money, hopefully to buy a home. And that’s what they did. This is why my mother took us there, so that we would grow up with my grandparents, and she would come back to the United States of America and work side by side with my father in order to increase the income and eventually buy a home for us, and that’s what happened.
COSBY: Oh. So during those years, from age three to nine years of age, your parents were busy working and saving their money to build their home.
CHISHOLM: Uh-huh.
COSBY: I understand that your father was a Garveyite, and was your mother as well?
CHISHOLM: No, no, no. My mother always used to tell Dad, “Look. Charles, don’t discuss that with me.” My mother was very stern. She said, “I am not interested in any political stuff.” [Laughter]
CHISHOLM: But my father was an ardent Garveyite, and my father—I think that’s where I got my interest in politics, from Dad, because Dad used to take me to the meetings with him, even though I was a child then of ten, eleven years of age. I used to get excited.
COSBY: For those of us who don’t know who Marcus Garvey is, would you just give us some background on him and what a Garveyite is.
CHISHOLM: Yeah. Marcus Garvey was a Jamaican who believed that blacks should return to Africa and build up Africa and accept Africa as their home. And he led a movement, here, in the United States, and he got caught up in a lot of scandal, and, eventually, it collapsed, and that was that.
COSBY: Do you think that your father’s involvement in Marcus Garvey’s movement had any impact on your development?
CHISHOLM: Oh, yes. Because I read everything I could about Marcus Garvey, and my father was such an ardent Garveyite that he would talk about him all the time. Yes.
COSBY: Fantastic. You are a child of immigrant parents from the Caribbean. Was it difficult for your family to fit in the New York City community that they lived in, in your youth?
CHISHOLM: No, I don’t think so because at that particular time many people from abroad were coming in, people from Italy and Spain—all over. So my parents were part of that movement that was taking place at that time in the United States of America.
COSBY: I see. Okay. You had scholarships to Vassar and to Oberlin.
CHISHOLM: Uh-huh.
COSBY: Why did you choose to go to Brooklyn College?
CHISHOLM: My parents didn’t have the money to buy the nice clothing. I’ll never forget that. And my mother said to me, “Shirley, I think that you should go to Brooklyn College,” because it was near to my home. I could travel by bus, and I didn’t have to lay out a great deal of money in terms of buying special kinds of clothing. So that’s why.
I was very sad when I learned I couldn’t go to Vassar, because I really wanted to go to Vassar College.
COSBY: That was your first choice.
CHISHOLM: Yes, that was my first choice.
COSBY: I see. And did you do any graduate work after you graduated from Brooklyn College?
CHISHOLM: Yes. I went on to Columbia University and received a degree in, a master’s degree in, early childhood education. And then I went on further and received a certificate as a supervisor in the field of education.
COSBY: And why did you choose education?
CHISHOLM: I always loved being around children and working with children, always, from the time I was a tot.
COSBY: Before entering politics, you had devoted yourself to the needs of children and you just said you love children. What brought you to that choice? You said you’ve always loved being around children.
CHISHOLM: I think it was due to the fact that I used to watch my mother with my younger sisters, and part of my responsibility, even though I was so young, was to also help take care of my sisters. And I just developed a kind of maternalistic—let me use that word—maternalistic attitude towards my sisters.
COSBY: I see.
CHISHOLM: And I used to love to put them to bed and coach them. I just really loved being with children.
COSBY: So you always felt responsibilities—because you were the eldest, you are the eldest of your siblings—and you felt that you had to take care of them and be responsible.
CHISHOLM: That’s correct.
COSBY: How was it for your first husband, Conrad Chisholm, when you became more involved in your political aspirations; how did others treat him, particularly men?
CHISHOLM: Oh, in fact, they didn’t pay much attention to him. Everything was Shirley, Shirley. The limelight was on Shirley, and this was one of the reasons why my first marriage cracked up after twenty-four years, because they put my husband in a position of becoming extremely jealous.
COSBY: I see.
CHISHOLM: He became very, very jealous, and I could understand, because no attention was being paid to him. And everything was Shirley, Shirley, Shirley this, Shirley that. And then there was, “He is the husband of Shirley Chisholm.” And you can imagine what that does to a person’s ego after a while.
And so that was the thing that really led to the breakup of my marriage, this business of his being jealous, and everybody—everybody catering to his wife, Shirley.
COSBY: Because you, apparently, you needed to have someone who was very…because you definitely were a trailblazer at that time.
CHISHOLM: Uh-huh, yes.
COSBY: So the pressures must have been great on him but also on you…on you to take a back step.
CHISHOLM: Yes, yes, yes.
COSBY: I see; okay. Before you successfully ran for the New York State Assembly in 1964, what did you do to prepare for your political journey?
CHISHOLM: I really didn’t do anything, specially. I was always interested in politics. But I remember the turning point came when I was…I think I was a sophomore at Brooklyn College. And we had a political, our political leader, a white gentleman, Stanley Steingut—I’ll never forget him—the leader of the district, came to give a lecture, and I remember so well, he said, “Black people are now moving ahead, but there’s going to be one basic truth that you’re going to have to accept, whether you want to or not. That black people cannot get ahead unless they have white people.”
I remember that. That stuck with me, and I said to myself, uh-huh, that’s what you think! And it was a challenge from that time on. That, that really had an impact on me.
COSBY: But, you know, Ms. Chisholm, you seem to have so much tenacity. Where do you think that came from, I mean, to even take on that kind of attitude?
CHISHOLM: It came from my grandmother. My grandmother had a fantastic influence in my life. She would always check my homework, and she would, each night she would say, “Repeat it to me.” And if I didn’t stand up straight, she said, “Child”—this is the way she’d talk—“Child, you got to stand up straight, let the world see you coming.” And I would have to stand up straight. I think that’s why I’m so erect—[laughter]
CHISHOLM: And she would say, “And don’t slur your words.” She, oh, she was pushy. My grandmother—I would say that my granny had the greatest influence in my life. And then along came, when I came back to this country, two other women that influenced me a great deal—Mary McLeod Bethune. She said to me, “You’re smart, you’re a very smart girl, but you must stand and fight.” I’ll never forget her words. “You must fight. You must fight.” And the other woman who had a fantastic influence was Eleanor Roosevelt.
COSBY: Really?
CHISHOLM: Eleanor Roosevelt came to New York City and I was in a, a contest, a debating contest, and I won the debate in the whole city of New York. And she said to me, I’ll never forget this tall woman, her hair in a chignon, and this little porkpie hat on, and she was ugly. She was very ugly. But Eleanor, the moment she opened her mouth, you felt a warmth. It was beautiful.
And she said to me, “Shirley St. Hill”—that is my maiden name—“Shirley St. Hill, you’re very smart, you’re intelligent. You must fight. You must get up and don’t let anybody stay in your way; even a woman can do it.”
COSBY: Wow. Well, it sounds like you had three very important women in your life.
CHISHOLM: Definitely.
COSBY: Your grandmother, your mother, Mary McLeod Bethune. Well, the fourth one would be, of course, Mrs. Roosevelt. That’s very interesting. And how fortunate for you.
CHISHOLM: Uh-huh.
COSBY: And then, of course, you had your father being a Garveyite.
CHISHOLM: A Garveyite, yes.
COSBY: Yes. Fantastic. But then you, because prior to your political career, you, I understand, taught nursery school and then you became supervisor of a network of nursery schools?
CHISHOLM: Yes.
COSBY: Do you think that what you learned as a supervisor, as an administrator, helped you to be, to know how to organize politically, how to network, and all the other things that one needs to do to become a politician?
CHISHOLM: Oh, yes. It had a terrific impact. This is why, today, even my friends say to me, “Shirley, for God’s sake, don’t be so darn organized.”
COSBY: Yes.
CHISHOLM: I acquired the organizational skills that I have in getting people together from those experiences, and for that I’m very, very thankful. Very thankful.
COSBY: Tell me something about that period when you were the supervisor for the network of nursery schools. Did you learn people skills at that time? Did you learn how to just interact with people, make them feel that they could trust you, or will you just, just describe that period a little bit.
CHISHOLM: Well, I would say two things. I read. There’s nothing that makes me feel better than I have a book, and I read so much material on these different kinds of skills that were necessary: how to organize, how to get people together, how to talk to them, and talk with them. I received a lot of my skills just from reading.
COSBY: I understand that you did things like compiled voter lists, carried petitions, rung doorbells, manned the telephone. All those kinds of things that really is more of grassroots work.
CHISHOLM: Yes, yes; that’s right.
COSBY: Yes. So all of that came in handy later on.
CHISHOLM: Oh, yes.
COSBY: Please explain the impact of New York’s political clubs on developing local politicians.
CHISHOLM: Oh! [laughter]
CHISHOLM: New York, at that time, it was a situation in which the minorities had absolutely no pull. No one paid attention to the Hispanic peoples, to the black peoples. And the clubs, for, for the most part, were run by two particular ethnic groups: the Italians and the Irish. And that’s how I got my first entrance into active politics, because I went into the club in my neighborhood, and my neighborhood was comprised primarily of Puerto Ricans and blacks.
COSBY: And you speak Spanish fluently, don’t you?
CHISHOLM: Yes, I do. And this, this club was headed by an Irishman, and he wouldn’t give the, the women a chance at a club to do anything. He wouldn’t give the blacks and, and the Hispanic people an opportunity to do anything. And then I joined the club because I was already beginning to move up, politically. And I was very active in community groups, and what I did in community groups, I was always organizing groups. Organize, organize, organize.
And I raised my hand in the club, and I asked him one basic question. I said, “Mr. Carney, I think it’s very important, that since you expect the women of this club to really raise money, money to go into the treasury in order to help the gentlemen run for political office, you don’t have any women running. Don’t you think it’s about time that the gentlemen of the club, who put the money in the treasury of the club, give the women money to get the materials that they need for the club?”
And he said, “Order, order.” And he was, he was very angry that I should raise this question, because it would mean we—we women—had to take money from our budgets and use it to buy pencils and paper and everything, and I was raising it, that the money should come out of the treasury.
And from that time, from the beginning of that little thing, my wings began to sprout all over the community. [laughter]
COSBY: Fantastic.
CHISHOLM: People said, “Gee, she’s so brave, she—you know—she challenged Commissioner Carney last night, and he didn’t know what to say.” And that’s how I began to move up, politically.
COSBY: Good for you, because certainly it is well-known that women have always done the work, but they don’t get the credit.
CHISHOLM: That’s right.
COSBY: But they do the work to put the men into office.
CHISHOLM: That’s right. A lot of Irishwomen were in the club, and they said, “Shirley St. Hill, Shirley St. Hill—do it!”
COSBY: Yes!
CHISHOLM: “We’ll follow you. We’ll follow.” And that’s all I needed to hear. And they followed me, and that’s how I began to move out and began to challenge the machine in the district, until I ran for the assembly and everything else. That’s how I really sprouted my wings.
COSBY: I also understand that you formed a political club to put a very successful white lawyer into, I think, the State Assembly. Was that it?
CHISHOLM: Yes, yes.
COSBY: Okay. So that was one of your—
CHISHOLM: That was one of my—yes. And if anybody would ask me, well, what was the greatest thing that stood in your way of trying to really move up, politically? I would have to say men. [laughter]
CHISHOLM: White men, black men, Puerto Rican. Men!
COSBY: Men.
CHISHOLM: That’s all. They gave me a hard time, because they said one thing about Shirley Chisholm, she’s too darn outspoken, and she’s always raising questions. She never keeps quiet. And what happened in the neighborhood, you heard it from the white men, the Puerto Rican men, the black men—all had their own little caucuses to decide to get together and see what we can do about this woman that’s moving out called Shirley Chisholm.
COSBY: And what is the definition of being too outspoken?
CHISHOLM: Oh, God! Let’s not talk about that! They tried to keep me, keep me down, keep me back. They used all kinds of tactics. But the thing about it—I was never afraid of men. Never afraid of men, and I think it was attributable to two things. I’m very friendly. I’m very outgoing. And I’m a person, I can laugh at myself and laugh at others. Very outspoken. And that’s what—because I know the men, the black men in my community, they said we can’t have a meeting—we don’t even invite her to the meetings, and here she comes. She heard that we were having a meeting; she wanted to say hello. [laughter]
CHISHOLM: But it wasn’t that. I knew that they were having a meeting and I wanted to invade their premises. [laughter]
CHISHOLM: You see? And find out what was going on. And I would—and, and when they saw me coming, they, they almost dropped dead. [laughter]
CHISHOLM: I really was not very nice in terms of how I had to react to them, but that, that was the only way I could react. That was the only way I could move out, because they wouldn’t give me a chance, because they were afraid of my mouth.
COSBY: And afraid of change.
CHISHOLM: Yes.
COSBY: Yes, of course.
CHISHOLM: That was it. Yeah, that was it.
COSBY: And the influence you would have on other women—
CHISHOLM: Oh, the women. I brought the whole neighborhood behind me. That was the women. That’s right.
COSBY: That is so interesting, how you remained so tenacious throughout that whole very difficult period, even in terms of what your first husband had to go through. Even in terms of the resistance from so many men. But there had to be some men who were supportive of you, too.
CHISHOLM: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, yes.
COSBY: So you had a healthy respect for men as well.
CHISHOLM: Yes. Oh, I love men. There’s no doubt about it. Some of them, they usually think that I hated men; it wasn’t that. It was a question of allowing and permitting women to come forth like everybody else.
COSBY: Yes.
CHISHOLM: You know? Don’t tell me that I can’t do it.
COSBY: Yes.
CHISHOLM: And I would, you know, I would say to somebody: What do you mean, telling me I can’t do it? How do you know? [laughter]
CHISHOLM: You know, and, and they couldn’t stand this, you know, this kind of retort.
COSBY: Do you think that, that the environment that you lived in for a short period of time, in Barbados, helped you to be persistent about your goals, and, and the support that you had from your family. Obviously, they said to you, you can do, you can be. Do you think that that helped you to just push through these obstacles?
CHISHOLM: Yes, I do. My life, those early years of my life on the island of Barbados, gave me the spirit, gave to me the spunk that was necessary to challenge all of these age-old traditions. And then, I was never afraid of anything, I was never afraid of anybody. And today, it’s the same way. I’m not afraid of anything. I’m not afraid of anybody. You’re going to hear from me. [laughter]
COSBY: With a smile on your face, right?
CHISHOLM: Yes. I always smile. [laughter]
COSBY: Very good. While in the State Assembly, you reversed a law that would badly affect female teachers. Please talk about that, as well as the CEK program, which you authored.
CHISHOLM: Well, I realized that the reason that black children were not getting along is because we didn’t have access to scholarships, and I was determined that, while I was in the assembly, that I would have to work in the field of education. And so I brought this program in, CEK, Church, Education, and Knowledge. It was a battle, but I won it. I won it, and black youth were able to get scholarships, and black youth were able to move out.
And I felt very strongly, in looking around me in the neighborhood, and to see all of the black youth not having the same opportunities as the white youth did, because of the fact that they were going to inferior schools, inferior kinds of schools, that this is very important to me.
And so while I was in the assembly, I worked a great deal in the field of education.
COSBY: And, of course, that is your background, anyway. You have your master’s degree in administration.
CHISHOLM: Yes, that was my master’s, that’s right.
COSBY: And then the, the female teachers. I understand that what you worked on was to enable them to have tenure while they were on maternity leave.
CHISHOLM: Yes. Teachers were so upset. They go on maternity leave and nobody does anything. You know, you go, you come back, you don’t have your job. So I fought that and I won that. But that was—oh, that was a terrible, terrible battle. But I, I won, because—one thing about me, as you say—I’m a very tenacious person. I hold on. I really do hold on.
COSBY: No matter what.
CHISHOLM: Yes, yes. That’s right. Hold on, no matter what. Uh-huh.
COSBY: Ms. Chisholm, how was New York’s Twelfth District created in 1968?
CHISHOLM: You know, every ten years, when you have the census, there’s a redistricting because of population changes, and it was created as a result of the work in the New York State Legislature at that time. And that’s how I got the opportunity to move out to run for the Congress.
COSBY: Now, were you the first black to run for Congress, or the first black woman?
CHISHOLM: The first black woman to make the bid.
COSBY: Okay. And then your opponent was James Farmer, who led the Congress of Racial Equality during the civil rights movement. He was male and famous. You were female and you were not known nationally.
CHISHOLM: Yes.
COSBY: How did you beat him?
CHISHOLM: Well, James Farmer, he felt so sorry for me. He was a lovely man, though. We got along famously, because we both like to talk, and we would talk and exchange information and everything.
But James Farmer said to me, “Shirley, the Congress is not for you. We need strong people.” And he used to use these adjectives. And he would come down on them. He said, “We need strong people. You’re a little schoolteacher.” [laughter]
COSBY: Little did he know…
CHISHOLM: Yes. And three things I think helped to bring him down, really. It was a bitter fight. One, he kept saying that that place is not a place for women. You need strong men. And I said, ah-ha, wait a minute. There are more women voters in my district.
COSBY: Yes.
CHISHOLM: And I used that. And boy, the women—white, black, Puerto Rican—all the women moved behind me.
And then another thing that insulted me. He would bring the trucks, with musicians on the trucks at the subway stations, and they would play the drums and the tom-toms and everything to give the idea of machismo and greatness. And this made me so angry.
So I said, you know, what I’m going to do with him. He lived in New York, downtown New York. So I hired some cameramen, and I say, for three weeks straight, watch James Farmer every time he comes out of his house, and then I reproduce it in auditoriums throughout the district. And they saw him come out, out of the, out of Manhattan to come into Brooklyn— [laughter]
CHISHOLM: —to run for Congress, and that helped to bring him down. And then he didn’t know that I spoke Spanish. So when I would go into the Puerto Rican districts, and I’d say, “Senora, Sí Senora, escúchame!” Oh— [laughter]
CHISHOLM: His mouth fell open, and he said Lord, what else, what else is she going to bring to this race, you know? And that’s how I did it, but we were good, yeah, we were good friends. But he said, “I could never understand—Shirley Chisholm, where do you get your nerve?” [laughter]
COSBY: Oh, fantastic. Then, in 1969, you were the first black woman, as you said earlier, elected to Congress. What was the mood of that Congress? That was the Ninety-Seventh Congress?
CHISHOLM: Yes.
COSBY: What was the mood? Because there were so many social movements going on at the time and had gone on in the civil rights movement; the Vietnam War was still going on. What was it like for you, in that Congress?
CHISHOLM: That was one of the most difficult moments of my life. For the first two to three months, I was miserable. The gentlemen did not pay me any mind at all. When I would go to the lunchroom to eat, they would not sit at the same table as I did, because I was a black woman.
It was horrible, and I’ll give you two little incidents that perhaps will show you that I had a sense of humor about a lot of things.
There was a little dining room beneath the floor of the House, and that was a place where we could go to get a bite if we were going to have a long day, and I did not know that in that dining room the tables were designated to the different delegations.
There was a table for New York, a table for Alabama, a table for—and I went one day to go down and sit at a table. I sat at a table ’cause nobody was sitting there. Ten chairs to the table, and I ordered my lunch. I was very hungry that day, and I got dessert and salad, and a little bit of everything put on the table. And I always took the New York Times and read it while I was eating, because nobody would sit by me.
So this day, I felt something hovering around me. I looked up, and if looks could kill, I would have been dead, because I was seated at the Georgia delegation table and didn’t know it.
COSBY: Oh, my goodness! Of all tables.
CHISHOLM: I was at the Georgia delegation table and didn’t know it. And this man stood up and looked at me, said, “You’re sitting at the wrong table.” I said, “What did you say?” He says, “I say, you’re sitting at the wrong table.” I said, “What table is this?” “Georgia delegation.” “Oh,” I said, “but, you see, the tables do not have any labels. I didn’t know. But tomorrow, I will find out where New York sits here, and then I will go to New York.” So I continued to eat, and he continues— [laughter]
CHISHOLM: “You’re sitting at the Georgia delegation table.” And I said, “I says if you don’t—” [laughter]
CHISHOLM: —“if you don’t move from here, I will so and so and so.” But then I began to feel sorry for him, because he was hungry, and I decided to use a different psychological approach.
I said, “You’re hungry, aren’t you?” And it’s the first time he gave me a smile because I was nice to him. He said, “Sure, I’m hungry.” I said, “I know what your problem is. Your problem is you cannot sit at this table because a black person is seated at the table. Isn’t that right?” He said, “Yeah.” [laughter]
CHISHOLM: I said, “I am going to help you. You see that table over there?” There’s a table diagonally across from the table where I was sitting, and there’s nobody at it.
I said, “Look, you go over and you sit at that table, you order your lunch, and if anybody bothers you, you tell ’em to see Shirley Chisholm.”
And I thought this would embarrass him, but it did not. This was just the funniest thing to me. It did not embarrass him. He went right over to the table and he sat— [laughter]
CHISHOLM: And he sat down!
COSBY: That just proves how ludicrous all this is, doesn’t it?
CHISHOLM: It’s ridiculous.
Then, then this other one—and this almost brought the house down. There was a gentleman that sat on the aisle seat, on the aisle, on the House floor. My office was on the other side of the building, so when I would come to the floor, he could see me coming through because my office was on that side of the building, upstairs, and he could see me coming down, because where I was going to sit was right behind him.
And every day I would come down and come through, and he would cough so badly. So one day I said to Brock Adams, who was the representative from the State of Washington, I said, “Why don’t somebody do something for that poor man. He sounds like he has TB. There’s something wrong with him.” And he said, “Shirley, I was waiting for you.” He said, “I want to tell you something. You got to do something.” I said, “What?” He said, “Every time he sees you coming down and coming through, he starts coughing, and then when you come by his seat, he gets his handkerchief out, he spits in the handkerchief, in your face.” This was his way of greeting me in the United States House of Representatives.
I said, “He does, Brock?” I said, “I thought—” He said, “Uh-uh. What are you going to do about it?”
I said, “Watch me tomorrow.”
I had a sweater suit, and the jacket, the jacket of the sweater had big pockets. And I went out and I bought, I purchased, a male handkerchief and I put it in the pocket, and the next day, when I came in, sure enough, he started to cough. I said, “Uh-huh. Baby, I’m going to fix you today.”
So, just as I came in, he was walking by the seat; by then I had it synchronized as to when he would pull the handkerchief out to meet my face and then spit in the handkerchief.
I said, “Yes, sir.” That day, pulled a handkerchief out just in time to spit in it and put it, throw it, in his face, and I said to him, “Beat you to it today.” [laughter]
CHISHOLM: From that day, he never coughed anymore.
COSBY: I bet he didn’t! There is that persistence. Yes. Not putting up with nonsense.
CHISHOLM: Yes, that’s right. That’s right. And the men—I’ll never forget—the men upstairs in the balcony, there was the newspapermen, and they saw this from upstairs in the balcony as I was coming in, and they almost toppled over the top. They roared, and the speaker had to put the— “There’ll be order in this House.”
COSBY: But, you know, it sounds like you also had allies.
CHISHOLM: Oh, yes.
COSBY: Because people were roaring, for example.
CHISHOLM: Oh, yeah, and another thing. The House would be so boring, at times, that they’d do anything, you know, to have some—“Shirley, give it to him, give to him, give it to him.” [fists clapping] You know. [laughter]
COSBY: Boy, that sounds like a very interesting beginning for you.
CHISHOLM: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
COSBY: What social and political issues were your priorities to fight for while you served in Congress, especially in the beginning of your career in Congress?
CHISHOLM: It’s the same old priority that we have today.
COSBY: Yes.
CHISHOLM: Housing. Employment. Health. The same priorities follow black people in these United States time after time after time.
COSBY: So your priorities were the same issues that people are still fighting for today.
CHISHOLM: Yes, the same issues. It’s strange that they don’t change.
COSBY: That is strange, isn’t it?
CHISHOLM: Yes, it’s strange that they don’t change. Uh-huh.
COSBY: Now, even including a woman’s right to choose, the abortion issue, educational issues, housing, so forth—people who are conscientious are still fighting for the same—
CHISHOLM: Still fighting for the same thing.
COSBY: What do you think about this current political climate? Do you think that there will be more obstacles that will be set up to—so that people cannot penetrate and get those particular rights?
CHISHOLM: Well, it’s being done very subtly in many instances, but our country has definitely moved to the right, there’s no question about it, and so you find a kind of—what should I say? There’s a cutback on the kind of funding that is so necessary to help lower-class and middle-class people to at least gain some opportunities.
So in some instances it’s worse than it used to be.
COSBY: Do you think, Ms. Chisholm, that it’s the country, or, or do you think it’s really the politicians and those who finance them?
CHISHOLM: It’s the politicians.
COSBY: The politicians.
CHISHOLM: Oh, yes, the politicians. There’s no question about it.
COSBY: And of course we have the media to do the spin, and the people might be led to support the politicians.
CHISHOLM: That’s right.
COSBY: Do you think that’s true?
CHISHOLM: That’s right. Very true.
COSBY: I see. Now after you went into Congress, were you at the National Black Political Convention in 1972?
CHISHOLM: You mean at Gary?
COSBY: Yes, in Gary, Indiana.
CHISHOLM: No.
COSBY: No, you weren’t. I see. Do you think that that particular gathering was significant?
CHISHOLM: No. I would have to say it was very significant because they were attempting to run a black person for the presidency of the United States, but they got into so many quarrels and fights. And of course I was not invited, nor would I be invited, because I had already put my hat in the ring to make a bid for the presidency.
COSBY: Despite it all.
CHISHOLM: Despite it all.
COSBY: What made you decide to do this, to run for president of the United States?
CHISHOLM: What made me decide was that I felt that the time had come, when a black person, or a female person, could and should be president of these United States of America, not only white males. And I decided somebody had to get it started.
COSBY: Were you the first black?
CHISHOLM: Yes, yes.
COSBY: Not only the first black woman, but the first black to run for president of the United States.
CHISHOLM: That’s right. And what I did, I felt that just about four years before, I had gone to the Congress as the first black woman to be elected to the Congress. And I had gone on a number of speaking engagements through the country, and there was a fantastic development for me as an individual, and people were encouraging me. “Ms. Chisholm, you should run. You should run because you’re a woman. We never had a woman president. You’re black. We never had a black person for president. You speak Spanish. You have a knowledge of the issues. Run.”
And that’s what motivated me—
COSBY: Just spurred you on.
CHISHOLM: Yes, spurred me on. But I knew I would be in trouble, because the moment that the announcement was made that I was going to make a bid for the presidency, all hell broke loose. All hell broke loose, from black men, white men, Puerto Rican men. Hell broke loose.
COSBY: Yes.
CHISHOLM: See, and I kind of expected it. I expected it.
COSBY: I do remember that period, too, when you announced your candidacy.
CHISHOLM: Yes.
COSBY: And how people were mumbling about this woman running—
CHISHOLM: Yes. “This woman.”
COSBY: How dare she do this?
CHISHOLM: Yes, yes. That’s right.
COSBY: And there you were.
CHISHOLM: Uh-huh.
COSBY: Do you think that you are publicly acknowledged for paving the way for women who have run for political offices and have won?
CHISHOLM: I think I’m publicly acknowledged, to a degree.
COSBY: To a degree?
CHISHOLM: Yes, to a degree. Uh-huh.
But one thing about it is that—sometimes I’ve caused this myself. I—believe it or not, you might not really want to accept this—that I’m a very reserved person, really. I am not a person that goes in for a lot of hullabaloo and everything, unless I’m fighting for a cause.
And there are many, many things that have been said to me and asked of me that I would not do, because I really don’t like a lot of hullabaloo. So I would not say that it was due to people. Partially, it’s due to me also.
COSBY: No. I believe that. I mean, I have seen some people who are public people who can be very still in the midst of being surrounded by a lot of people.
CHISHOLM: Yes, correct.
COSBY: I suppose that is what you’re talking about, that you really find that quiet center, despite the fact that you are surrounded by many, but you need your quiet time so that you can be regenerated for the public? Is that what you mean?
CHISHOLM: Yes, that’s right. Definitely.
COSBY: Yes. Because during that time, when you ran for, for the president, it must have been absolutely chaotic.
CHISHOLM: Oh, it was!
COSBY: And the media—did you think that the media treated you properly overall?
CHISHOLM: No. They did not treat me properly at all, particularly in the South. But the one thing in the South that was very strange was George Wallace.
COSBY: Oh, yes.
CHISHOLM: George Wallace, for some strange, unknown reason, he liked me, and when we were running in the Floridian primary, John Lindsay, who was the mayor of New York, begged me to pull back because I was beating him in Florida, and I would not pull back. I said, “No, this is my time.”
COSBY: Oh, that is such a surprise that you would not do that. [laughter]
CHISHOLM: I would not. George Wallace came down to Florida, and he went all over Florida and he, he said to the people, “If you all can’t vote for me, don’t vote for those oval-headed lynchers. Vote for Shirley Chisholm.” And that crashed my votes, because they thought I was in league with him to get votes.
COSBY: Oh.
CHISHOLM: That’s what killed me in Florida. You see? Because he came out for me, if people couldn’t vote for him. So they said, well, I guess Shirley Chisholm made some kind of agreement with George Wallace—
COSBY: Behind the scenes.
CHISHOLM: Yes, that’s right.
COSBY: And then, of course, when he was shot you visited him, and I understand there—
CHISHOLM: Oh, when I visited him, and he was shot, I almost lost my seat. I went to the hospital to visit him, and all of us who were running for president at that time—Jackson and Wilbur Mills and John Lindsay—there were thirteen of us who were out there in the race in 1972. And I went to see him. Oh, my gosh! I knew that I was going to be thrown out of office.
The people in my district came down on me like anything, and I had two big public forums, and I said this is not the way we do it. And I had to lecture to them and let them know that I wouldn’t want this to happen to anybody. So I kind of brought them along, but that was one time that I almost lost my seat, even though I was still holding, because I went to visit George Wallace.
And when I went to visit George Wallace, he was in the bed—I’ll never forget this—all the tubes were coming through his nostrils, his throat, and he was lying in the bed, and he was propped up, and I come in through the door, and he says, “Shirley Chisholm, what you doing here? You shouldn’t be here.” I said, “I’m here because you are ill, and you are ill for a good reason. God guides us.”
And he, he looked up. I couldn’t stay long because he was very ill, and the doctors told me, “Congresswoman, you have to leave him.” And he held on to my hand so tightly, he didn’t want me to go.
COSBY: Because that was the beginning of his transition, wasn’t it?
CHISHOLM: Yes, yes.
COSBY: After he was shot.
CHISHOLM: Yes. And I tell you it—that was, that was one of the moments in my life, my district almost ripped me apart.
COSBY: What did you do, Ms. Chisholm to, to correct that?
CHISHOLM: I had to lecture a—I don’t have it now—but I have a way of speaking, I have a way of being able to draw people to me, and I use it. It was my ability to have an influence on people by the way I speak and the way I dress, and what have you. And that’s what helped.
COSBY: I see.
CHISHOLM: If not, I would have been out. I would have been out of office.
COSBY: I see.
CHISHOLM: Uh-huh.
COSBY: So you’re, you’re saying that your speaking skills and, and your people skills— you used those two skills to turn this negativity around.
CHISHOLM: Correct.
COSBY: Because, I suppose, that the media had also played a part in this to make you appear to be undesirable.
CHISHOLM: Yes, that’s right.
COSBY: And you were already this black woman running for president. So you were dealing with many negative issues there.
CHISHOLM: Uh-huh.
COSBY: Many of the nation’s black political leadership, including some in your own Congressional Black Caucus, did not support you.
CHISHOLM: Uh-huh.
COSBY: Why? [laughter]
CHISHOLM: They didn’t support me because, first of all, the seat belongs to a man; belongs to a male, period, white male, Puerto Rican male. Belongs to a male. No women have any right—or should have any right running for the presidency of the United States.
COSBY: Well, certainly a white male for president.
CHISHOLM: That’s right. And then, secondly, these men wanted to put forth a black male for president, and I got in the way, and the thing about it, as you said, I’m a very tenacious person. I held on; I wouldn’t give up. I wouldn’t step back. And that was it.
COSBY: And what was your reaction to this, this negative attitude from the men within the Black Caucus, or maybe other people as well?
CHISHOLM: I didn’t pay them any mind. I looked neither to the South nor to the North, to the West nor to the East. And whatever I do, even today, I look only to God and my conscience for approval, not man. That’s my motto. You go crazy if you look to man. [laughter]
COSBY: What was your presidential platform?
CHISHOLM: My platform was things that I was talking to you earlier about. Education. Better housing. Paying attention to our health problems, the health problems, that was always the same things.
COSBY: Always the same issues.
CHISHOLM: Always the same.
COSBY: Welfare, too, I suppose.
CHISHOLM: Yes, yes, yes.
COSBY: Wow! It is awful, isn’t it?
CHISHOLM: Yes.
COSBY: However, there were some black men who supported you.
CHISHOLM: Oh, yes. Uh-huh.
COSBY: I understand that Ron Dellums and Parren Mitchell—
CHISHOLM: Uh-huh.
COSBY: At least, you know, there were some very conscientious men in this group.
CHISHOLM: Yes. There, there were some, and these conscientious men, Ron Dellums and Parren Mitchell, they were trying to talk to their brothers and say give her a chance, she has ability, she has talent. Shirley’s no dummy. And they, they so much as told them, “Get lost.”
COSBY: But how wonderful that they did that despite the fact that most of their peers did not.
CHISHOLM: Yes, that’s right.
COSBY: Oh, hooray to them. What went through your mind as your name went into the nomination at the 1972 Democratic National Convention? [laughter]
COSBY: Just when you heard your name?
CHISHOLM: Well, you know, I was embarrassed. You know, I don’t know what it was. But George Wallace, his delegates, they jumped outta their seats and strumming, “Go Shirley, go.” You know, I couldn’t understand this, that southerners, particularly from the State of Alabama, because the State of the Alabama was seated right down front at the convention center, and they almost went wild—and, and all the people from New York and Pennsylvania, they were looking like, “What’s going on here?” Shirley’s supporting them? You know, I couldn’t control it.
For some reason—I would like to understand this, why the State of Alabama, led by George Wallace at that time, had good feelings, good vibes about me. It’s very strange.
COSBY: That is.
CHISHOLM: Yeah, very strange.
COSBY: You don’t think it was a setup in any way, do you?
CHISHOLM: No, no.
COSBY: To dilute your power?
CHISHOLM: I don’t think so. I don’t know what it was, but they really—
COSBY: That must have been quite a sight to see, these delegates from Alabama—
CHISHOLM: I wanted to tell them, “Sit down, sit down.” You know what I mean? [laughter]
COSBY: Now George McGovern of course was the ultimate nominee for the Democrat Party against Nixon.
CHISHOLM: Uh-huh.
COSBY: Besides yourself, who would you have favored to be the nominee? Or what would you consider to be a winning ticket, besides yourself, at that time?
CHISHOLM: I thought that Humphrey should be on the ticket, should be the person.
COSBY: With McGovern you mean?
CHISHOLM: Yes.
COSBY: I see. And why?
CHISHOLM: Well, Humphrey, in terms of his political life, had always taken very strong and firm positions on the issues that affected poor people and people from the middle class.
COSBY: Because he had a solid civil rights record.
CHISHOLM: Yes, that’s right.
COSBY: What about George McGovern?
CHISHOLM: I never did care that much for George McGovern. I thought that George McGovern was just an opportunist, at that time.
COSBY: Yes. But why do you think he lost to Nixon?
CHISHOLM: ’Cause he didn’t have support. He didn’t have support because the only state that he carried in the union, which is very embarrassing, was Massachusetts.
COSBY: Really?
CHISHOLM: Yes. He didn’t carry any state at the convention but Massachusetts.
COSBY: That’s just amazing.
CHISHOLM: Yes, yes. Massachusetts was the only state that, that really backed him. And I think he was a little bit—you know, if you’re going into politics, you have to show by your behavior and your actions that you care for people, that you like people, and he was somewhat—he was a little bit stuffy. He, he couldn’t—
COSBY: A little distant.
CHISHOLM: Yeah, a little distant. He couldn’t consort with people easily. It was very noticeable.
COSBY: I see.
CHISHOLM: I think that did not help him.
COSBY: So the personality was a problem?
CHISHOLM: Yes, yes, that’s right. That’s right.
COSBY: What was the greatest lesson you learned about America and its political system?
CHISHOLM: The greatest lesson I learned about America is that America must not feel so terribly superior to everybody else in the world.
COSBY: Do you feel that is very evident now?
CHISHOLM: Now, even today, America feels that she knows everything, and that she has a right, a God-given right, to tell people how to live, how to do whatever. I have very deep feelings about that. America suffers from a superiority complex of the worst kind.
COSBY: And what do you think will be the ramifications from that attitude?
CHISHOLM: I think we’re going to get ourselves in the position of more and more people disliking us, because we act so arrogant. We always want to tell everybody else what to do.
COSBY: Do you think that America’s populace is aware of this?
CHISHOLM: No. I don’t think they’re aware of it.
COSBY: They’re not aware of the architects of all of this arrogance and colonialism?
CHISHOLM: They follow the politicians, what the politicians tell them, you see. Americans are very, very gullible.
COSBY: Ms. Chisholm, why do you think Americans are so gullible? I’m talking about the populace now. Why do they want to follow and not question, do you think? Not be critical thinkers.
CHISHOLM: Critical thinkers?
COSBY: Yes. [laughter]
COSBY: Is there any such thing? [laughter]
CHISHOLM: Americans—I think the largest thing—I wouldn’t say that we’re not smart. We just don’t have time to think. Our lives are so complicated and so complex; we have so many things to do in America. There’s no other country in the world where people are involved in so many different things, and responsible for so many…
And then also I think there’s a little bit of laziness in terms of using your brainpower. I really do.
COSBY: Of course we’re talking about how the American populace, so many people are gullible.
CHISHOLM: Uh-huh.
COSBY: Do you think it has anything to do with fear? Because most people in America, I assume, are middle income—
CHISHOLM: Yes, they are.
COSBY: And middle-income people are in debt.
CHISHOLM: Uh-huh.
COSBY: I mean, they, they have to pay mortgages, they have to pay car notes.
CHISHOLM: Uh-huh.
COSBY: Most of the things that they own, they had to borrow from the bank to get.
CHISHOLM: Uh-huh.
COSBY: So there has to be a fear, I think, about losing one’s job and then losing everything that one has—
CHISHOLM: Uh-huh.
COSBY: —that has not been paid for yet. Do you think that might be one factor for the populace being so gullible?
CHISHOLM: I think one of the basic factors is the fact that the American people don’t have the time to think of anything else. There’s so many problems. There’s no other country in the world in which citizens have so many problems and so many things to think about.
COSBY: So the time is spent working to pay for everything perhaps.
CHISHOLM: Yes, yes. They don’t—it’s a strange thing, but they just don’t have time to—
How many Americans are really interested in politics? They only become quite interested when it’s time to, for, the candidates to run for office and they have to make selections. But all during the course of the year they don’t think about—
COSBY: They’re not interested.
CHISHOLM: They’re not interested. You know, they’re really not interested.
COSBY: Probably because they don’t know how important it is to be—
CHISHOLM: That’s right. They don’t realize.
COSBY: If they really knew what the politicians were doing, that affects all of our lives, maybe there would be more interest.
CHISHOLM: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
COSBY: But I have found that so many people are afraid to face the truth; it’s a little unsettling, because so many of us like to feel comfortable.
CHISHOLM: That’s right.
COSBY: We don’t want to know what the truth is because it might be horrifying.
CHISHOLM: That’s right.
COSBY: So do you think that that is one of the problems in terms of people not becoming interested in what the politicians are doing?CHISHOLM: I think so. They just want to sit back, just take care of the things that they have to take care of, things that affect their daily lives, and don’t bother me with all these other things. You know?
COSBY: Yes, yes. And then of course most of the politicians are men, and we have a tendency to look at men as gods.
CHISHOLM: Yes.
COSBY: Was it difficult to return to Congress after your campaign for president?
CHISHOLM: No, it was not difficult.
COSBY: No?
CHISHOLM: I became even more popular. I became more popular, you know.
COSBY: More popular?
CHISHOLM: Yeah, more popular.
COSBY: Was there any noticeable change in the way your colleagues treated you in Congress?
CHISHOLM: Oh, yes. They treated me—it was strange. They didn’t realize I was “so smart,” in quotes. They—the men—some of them approached me, and said, “You got a brain.” I said, “I’ve always had a brain.” [laughter]
CHISHOLM: You know—they belittle women so badly. [laughter]
COSBY: Do you think that that is still a problem?
CHISHOLM: Oh, no, it’s gone. No. Because the women that we have in Congress now, we have forty-three women in Congress.
COSBY: Yes.
CHISHOLM: They give ’em the business!
COSBY: They do.
CHISHOLM: Oh, yes. They give ’em the business. I wouldn’t be surprised, another, let’s say another ten years from now, if we don’t have half and half.
COSBY: Yes.
CHISHOLM: I will not be surprised.
COSBY: Let’s hope so.
CHISHOLM: More and more women are getting the guts to run.
COSBY: What about for the presidency?
CHISHOLM: Oh, a woman is going to be president.
COSBY: Within the next ten years, maybe?
CHISHOLM: Next twenty-five years.
COSBY: Twenty-five years.
CHISHOLM: Yes, yes. A woman’s going to be president.
COSBY: Yes. Do you think it will be a woman of color?
CHISHOLM: No. I believe that before a woman can become president of this country, a woman has to be vice president, first of all, so that we will get used to the idea of a woman ascending to high office. That’s what I believe.
COSBY: I see.
CHISHOLM: Yeah.
COSBY: Fantastic.
In 1982, you decided not to seek another term in Congress. Why did you make that decision?
CHISHOLM: Reagan. [laughter]
COSBY: Tell us about Reagan.
CHISHOLM: Many of the programs, and many of the things that I’d been interested in, I saw how they deteriorated. I saw how many things were pushed back on the back burner, and many of the things that I had been involved in were no longer a part of his overall domestic programs. It was just too much. I said I didn’t want to go through it anymore.
COSBY: That was it.
CHISHOLM: That was it. I had enough. Yes, that was it.
COSBY: What do you consider to be your greatest legislative victory?
CHISHOLM: The income for domestics in this country. Domestic workers. Every year we had the increase in income, domestic workers never, never fit into the scale of things.
COSBY: Are you talking about minimum wage?
CHISHOLM: No. Just in general.
COSBY: In general.
CHISHOLM: In general. Domestics were just—they were treated almost like animals.
COSBY: Yes. What about benefits?
CHISHOLM: And the title program, the Title 2, the Title 1 program of the Education Act.
COSBY: Oh.
CHISHOLM: Yes. Title—is it Title…? I can’t remember the title, whether it’s Title 2 or Title 1. And then Title 9.
COSBY: Yes.
CHISHOLM: I am very proud of the fact that Title 9, I had a very, very big part in that, because of the fact that for the first time, women in this country, and women on the college campuses, could compete for athletic scholarships.
COSBY: Oh.
CHISHOLM: Women could never get athletic scholarships.
COSBY: Isn’t that something!
CHISHOLM: Yes. Women could never get athletic scholarships, and I fought for that, and today women—
COSBY: Oh, all over the place.
CHISHOLM: Yeah, yeah, all over the place. Yeah. Very proud of that. [laughter]
CHISHOLM: Yes. I’m proud of that.
COSBY: You were a professor at Mount Holyoke College.
CHISHOLM: Yes. I was.
COSBY: From 1983 to 1987. What did you teach, and was the teaching as satisfactory as politics?
CHISHOLM: Oh, I taught politics. I taught women in politics and—I guess it was women in politics and the growth of the women’s movement in this country.
COSBY: I bet you had full classes.
CHISHOLM: Oh, my gosh! They were overcrowded; classes were overcrowded.
COSBY: And that’s such a beautiful campus, too.
CHISHOLM: Yes, yes. I had a wonderful experience there. I had a very wonderful experience there, but I realized that many of the women whom I taught, they knew absolutely nothing about the importance, in this country, with respect to the development of women in the field of politics.
They didn’t know anything, you know. It was a revelation to me, how little we knew about ourselves. Women.
COSBY: Even at a women’s institution like Mount Holyoke.
CHISHOLM: Yes.
COSBY: What about when you went to Spelman? I understand you were a visiting professor there.
CHISHOLM: The same thing.
COSBY: The same thing at Spelman?
CHISHOLM: The same thing, yes.
COSBY: Why do you think that’s so?
CHISHOLM: Look, your universities, your professional staff is composed mainly of men, and they just don’t stress the importance of women. They just don’t—I don’t think they do it purposely. I think it never enters their mind, that women have made a fantastic contribution to this country. They just never think of it.
COSBY: What about the women professors, though?
CHISHOLM: They’re so few and far between.
COSBY: Really?
CHISHOLM: Yes. There’s so few in there, far between, and the women I find, also, some of them are very much afraid of male professors. They don’t want to—
COSBY: Once again that godlike image.
CHISHOLM: Yeah, yes, yes. It’s something that I have not been able to get used to.
COSBY: I guess not.
CHISHOLM: I guess I’m so outspoken and I, I am so free.
COSBY: Also, I find it so interesting, Ms. Chisholm, to go back to your Caribbean background, because in my mind, I always thought that these different Caribbean cultures were very male oriented.
CHISHOLM: Oh, yes!
COSBY: But still, you, you obviously felt that you were equal to men in terms of intelligence and whatever, you know, pursuing your goals and so forth. I still would like to know, is it because of your grandmother? Is it because these women said, “No, Ms. Chisholm, Shirley, you are equal to.” Is that—
CHISHOLM: It’s my grandmother.
COSBY: Your grandmother said it.
CHISHOLM: My grandmother had an impact—
COSBY: It was a mantra.
CHISHOLM: Yes. My grandmother had such an impact on my life, that had she not had this impact on me, I don’t think I would have moved out in this country like I did. I really believe that.
COSBY: Oh, my goodness; it was a powerful impact.
CHISHOLM: Yes, it was. It was.
COSBY: Because you definitely have gone against the odds. In many ways.
CHISHOLM: Yes.
COSBY: How would you describe yourself? [laughter]
CHISHOLM: I would describe myself as—I’ll have to use adjectives, huh? [laughter]
COSBY: Okay. Whatever.
CHISHOLM: I would describe myself as being friendly, a very extroverted personality, a lover of people, a person who smiles, who laughs a great deal, a person with a kind of sense of humor. Imitator of people. I like to imitate and copy people. [laughter]
CHISHOLM: And a very tenacious person, a very determined person, and a person who does not believe in following other people for the sake of following them. Going on the dictates of my mind and my conscience.
COSBY: Very good. And what is your definition of leadership? And, definitely, you have been a leader.
CHISHOLM: A leader has to know that he knows, and he has to be—
COSBY: Or she.
CHISHOLM: Yeah, he or she. He has to be able to withstand the insults and the kind of things that are thrown in your direction, and you have to really have a spirit and a mind, which dictates only to you, and to know within yourself that what you are doing is the right thing to do, because that’s what you feel. And you should not look to anybody at all for approval of what you are about.
And a leader has to learn to stand at the head of the flock and beckon them to follow.
COSBY: And what do you think has been the major misperception of you?
CHISHOLM: Oh. I think I would have to say that people, many people felt that I’ve rarely been too outspoken, that I should hold back a bit. That’s one of the things I know. That you’re too outspoken. Don’t always speak out on everything that you feel. I can’t help it. I’m too outspoken, is what they’ve told me.
COSBY: But, of course, you don’t think you are too outspoken.
CHISHOLM: No. I don’t.
COSBY: No, of course not. What do you consider to be your greatest achievement?
CHISHOLM: My greatest achievement, believe it or not, is that I had the audacity and the nerve to make a bid for the presidency of the United States of America. I really think that’s my greatest achievement.
COSBY: What is your strongest regret?
CHISHOLM: You know, to tell you the truth, I don’t really regret anything that I’ve done. I really don’t.
COSBY: Very good.
CHISHOLM: Uh-huh.
COSBY: What advice would you want to give to young blacks?
CHISHOLM: Get a good education, follow your mind, follow the dictates of your conscience, do what you think and feel has to be done in order for you to achieve, and you’ll be able to succeed. I really believe that.
COSBY: Do you think that young blacks feel hopeful?
CHISHOLM: No. I don’t.
COSBY: Do you think that that is self-defeating, if you’re hopeless?
CHISHOLM: Yes, yes. Yes.
COSBY: So what, what can be done to make young people see that they can be hopeful?
CHISHOLM: All you can do, you can constantly lecture to them, and constantly answer their queries and their, their questions about things. But so much of it has to do with the kind of environment in which they’re reared.
COSBY: Yes. Then of course young people are bombarded with negative images, too.
CHISHOLM: Oh, yes. Yes.
COSBY: From different forms of media.
CHISHOLM: That’s right.
COSBY: So that those repetitive messages, perhaps, are making them feel hopeless, or defining them—that they believe these definitions.
CHISHOLM: Yes.
COSBY: What can be done, do you think? What can be done to counter these repetitive negative messages and images?
CHISHOLM: I still say that basically, you always have to go back to the environment in which they’re being reared. You always have to go back to that.
I know of young people—I had to get a few of them straightened out a few weeks ago—don’t give me that answer, don’t tell me that. They didn’t want to get high marks in their class because it means that they think they’re “it.” They, they just want to be mediocre individuals.
And I told them, there’s too much mediocrity in this country. Too much.
COSBY: Yes.
CHISHOLM: You’ve got to excel because excellence reaps rewards.
COSBY: And I daresay that those of us who have been fortunate enough to be exposed to people who are in charge, we see more mediocrity the closer we get to the people who are in charge. Would you agree with that? [laughter]
CHISHOLM: Oh, gosh! Yes. Yes.
COSBY: Are you optimistic about America’s racial future?
CHISHOLM: No.
COSBY: Why is that?
CHISHOLM: If our very basic Constitution had phrases in it that had to do with slavery, and if we go back to the birth of this country, and the growth of this country, and if we go back to laws and rules and regulations of the states, I can’t be optimistic. I try to be, but I can’t. I can’t be optimistic.
COSBY: And the, the fact that people have fought so hard for the amendments to the Constitution, to make the Constitution what it’s supposed to be, that, too, I guess—
CHISHOLM: I can’t be optimistic. I’ve tried to look at it in a way that I don’t see a lot of loopholes or what have you; but I find that I can’t. I’m not very optimistic about my country, and I love my country. I love my country but I can’t be too optimistic about it.
COSBY: What do you think that we’ll do if someone like you, Ms. Chisholm, is not optimistic; how can we make young people more persistent, like you were persistent, to make, to create the changes, to galvanize people so that they will become critical thinkers and be activists? If there’s a lack of optimism, I mean, what is the, the component to make you—
CHISHOLM: But, you see, what I always say, I always go back, constantly, to the environment in which they are being reared. You have to go back to how they’re being reared. What is being discussed with them at home? What is being said to them when they go out? It goes right back to the home.
COSBY: It does.
CHISHOLM: If you don’t have a good home background, forget it.
COSBY: And then there are so many changes that need to be done in the home—
CHISHOLM: You open that door, you open that door and the young people go off. You only pray that they come back the way you sent them out.
COSBY: Yes.
CHISHOLM: It’s very hard.
COSBY: Ms. Chisholm, how do you want history to remember you?
CHISHOLM: I want history to remember me, not that I was the first black woman to be elected to the Congress, not as the first black woman to have made a bid for the presidency of the United States, but as a black woman who lived in the twentieth century and who dared to be herself. I want to be remembered as a catalyst for change in America.
COSBY: Thank you, Ms. Chisholm.