John MacArthur
John MacArthur’s thoughts about miscellaneous phases of pastoral ministry do not fit under any main heading of Pastoral Ministry, but have come in response to questions asked him in pastors’ conferences and chapels at The Master’s Seminary. The current discussion reproduces his brief but suggestive answers to these questions. As it progresses, the discussion falls into four main categories: beginning a pastoral ministry, personal support, ministry threats, and sustaining a pastoral ministry.
BEGINNING A PASTORAL MINISTRY
What are the components of a successful first-time pastor? Or put another way, if you were to start all over again, what things would you emphasize?
I’m not sure I would change a lot. I know so much more now, but I don’t think I would do anything very differently. I started immediately teaching the Word. I wanted to teach the books of the Bible that would exalt Christ, so we would have a Christ-centered church. I wanted to teach on spiritual gifts, so we would have people who were working and serving and using their gifts. I wanted to disciple men so we could build up leadership. I emphasized evangelism.
If there is anything I would do differently, I would be less concerned about structure. A temptation when you are young is always organization and structure. You think you have found a great new concept, a new flow chart, a new way to organize, but that rarely is crucial to effective ministry. You don’t want to spend very much time on that; you want to spend most of your time on the dynamics of ministry, on building your people spiritually. I would again raise my own staff from within the church, from those who are effective in ministry and in teaching. I do regret that I did not listen and pray more. But from the very start I have believed that God was leading, so I wouldn’t want to second-guess Him or go back and redo what He has done.
What one overarching word of wisdom would you give to new pastors just starting out?
Paul said it when he told the Philippians, “This one thing I do, pursue Christ” (see Phil. 3:13–14). Pursue the knowledge of Christ, the person of Christ, study the Bible to know Him. I never studied to make a sermon—I studied to know Him. The more you know Him, the more you know the standard you have to live by.
Build your ministry around the Scriptures. Relentlessly force your ministry to conform to the Word of God and that’s how you put yourself in the place of preeminent blessing. Do ministry biblically—nothing less and nothing more. Make friends with people who will challenge you, stimulate you, question you, make you defend what you do. Draw around you the best people who best handle the Scripture, who live the purest lives, and who don’t stop studying. Stay fresh for your sake as well as for the church.
PERSONAL SUPPORT
To whom does a pastor look as his own pastor? Where do you look for shepherding in your own life?
I look to my staff, and since I am always the preacher and I don’t hear another preacher, I depend on reading books and occasionally listening to tapes. When you talk about “your pastor,” you are talking about somebody who is an example of spiritual leadership to you, someone who has a high spiritual standard to maintain and uphold in his life. It is just like people in the congregation looking at their pastor. They watch his life, they watch his character, and they watch his family—and he sets an example for them. I have men near me who work with me every day and who do the same for me. They are men I look to as examples and spiritual friends.
I have other pastor friends outside our church, though I don’t have the opportunity to be with them nearly as much as with my own co-pastors. I also need to add that I am frequently pastored by the books and the writers I have grown to know and appreciate. Biographies of noble and sacrificial ministers also provide strong motivation for my own devotion to Christ.
Is there one particular person to whom you would go when you need personal advice on a tough subject?
My personal approach would be to go to certain men with whom I work nearly every day. The truest and purest environment for me to get help is right with my own fellow pastors. I trust I have allowed those men to rise to the highest level of their own development doctrinally, biblically, and practically, not by telling them what to believe but by leading them toward a body of convictions that has become their own. Then when it comes to the point where I cannot resolve something and need help, I go back to them, because they are going to have some answers for me. That’s where I would go first of all. It would be rare for me to go beyond these men to someone outside that circle, since they have proven to be such a blessing to me.
Over the years, who have been the people who have influenced you the most?
First, my father. He is still influencing me and still faithful. He is eighty and still preaches the Word, loves to read, and loves to study.
When I studied under Dr. Charles Feinberg, then Dean of Talbot Seminary, he also greatly impacted me because of his commitment to know the truths of Scripture and his unabashed devotion to its inerrancy. Also, the unflagging discipline in his life affected me in setting a standard for me to try to live up to.
Ralph Keiper, one-time researcher for Donald Grey Barnhouse, affected me dramatically in my preaching by challenging me to explain one Scripture by means of another one, which is basically what I do in almost all of my sermons.
Although I never met him, D. Martin Lloyd-Jones has impacted me. I know his family and have read his books. He would explain and then theologize the text, and he would take firm biblical stands without sacrificing the grace of godliness. He would take a stand, where the Scripture took a stand, even if everybody else in his whole city, whole country, wherever, went another way—he would stand on what the Scripture taught. He would not equivocate.
Years ago, I started reading the Puritans, which I have found to be a rich resource. There are a number of other writers and personal friends who have influenced me.
My wife, Patricia, has influenced me with her intense devotion to what is right and honoring to God.
How does a pastor stay accountable?
He must have an accountability first to God. I love the Lord and I don’t want to do what dishonors Him; that is the most intimate aspect of my accountability and the highest point, because that’s a twenty-four hour a day relationship through all of life. Next, I have a point of accountability at home with my wife and my children. I want to lead them to love God and serve Him, and I don’t want to disappoint them or lead them astray. I don’t want to lead them to distrust my devotion to Christ, and thereby cheapen their understanding of Christian faith and commitment. Too much is at stake in their lives and the lives of their families. Third, I have personal accountability to men who labor with me and are my friends.
Fourth, I have an accountability to preach several times every week of my life. That throws me into the Word. If pastors, when they are young, will establish a standard of diligent study and excellent preaching, then they will have to spend the rest of their lives living up to it. If early in your ministry you establish a low standard, a standard of sloppiness and of minimum study, you have nothing to live up to. If young men give the first five to ten years of ministry to diligent and deep study of God’s Word, they set a standard for themselves that pleases the Lord and that demands faithfulness. This, then, becomes the standard they will gladly spend the rest of their life living up to, rejoicing in its fruit. That forces you into the Word at a depth where you really commune with God and come to know His heart.
Finally, build around you godly, devout men who have very high expectations of you. Don’t hide your life. You need an accountability to your fellow leaders and pastors. Let them argue, let them debate; don’t just get to the place where they do whatever you say. You don’t want yes-men. You want friends who will question when they need to question and ask you why you are doing something that isn’t clear. That’s a very important accountability. It keeps you from making foolish, unwise, and hasty decisions. It keeps you from being blindsided by your own ignorance or your own will, or becoming habitually less than God desires and spiritual excellence requires.
MINISTRY THREATS
What do you see as the greatest threats that may undermine a man’s ministry today?
One threat is laziness. We live in a really busy and fast-paced culture. Many men run fast, but I’m not sure they go very deep. By that I mean it is easy to be busy with the short and easier tasks but leave the long, hard jobs undone. We are raising a culture, for example, that does not do the manual labor, at least in the major cities. You hire people to do that. It’s a service-oriented culture in America, it’s moving away from farming and manufacturing, and it’s all automated. Many men do not know how to work hard, especially those who have been in school for a long time. They know how to stay busy doing a number of little things, but they do not know how to focus with discipline on the main thing—diligence and discipline in the Scripture. The result is often a failure to attend to the priorities and a resultant superficiality in the ministry. A lot of activity happens at a shallow level, but the hard work of ministry—the things that take time and prayer and intense study of the Word—are often not done well.
Second, there are constant threats in the area of personal purity. We all have to guard our hearts and strengthen the inner man to remain pure, devoted to Christ, and dedicated to things that are holy.
Third, one of the chief problems that tears men down in the ministry is poor judgment in building a ministry team. Whether it is elders, staff pastors, lay elders, or friendships, we need to pursue those who are faithful to the highest level of spiritual excellence. We need the kind of people whose virtue, wisdom, and faithfulness to the work will force us to think and justify everything we do biblically. They are not going to roll over because we want to do something. I think that kind of accountability is really important.
A fourth threat to undermine a man’s ministry is a nonsupportive wife. It could also extend to the children, but particularly a nonsupportive wife, one who nags and battles a pastor as he tries to be faithful and loyal to the Lord and the church. If she is negative on the church or the people in it, or if she is spiritually out of sorts or materialistic and self-indulgent or a little too controlling, she will cease to be that support that her husband so desperately needs to serve his people with joy. A fully supportive, loving, trusting wife who will be honest but who will stand with her husband to the very end frees a man up to do with all his heart what God has called him to do.
Every church and pastor has his critics. How do you live with your critics?
First of all, I check my life to see if the criticism is valid. If not, I affirm that I am privileged to render my service to the Lord, not men. I have to live in 1 Corinthians 4 where Paul said in effect, “It’s a small thing what men say of me.” He was criticized mercilessly, particularly by the people in Corinth, yet he could respond by saying, “I don’t really care what they say about me. I do care what they say about my Lord and about His truth—but it’s a small thing what men say of me.” He also affirmed that he was the chief sinner. I try to follow that pattern and say, “It really doesn’t matter what people think, and I’m certainly not worth defending. I may have been accused falsely of something, but there certainly has been sin in my life somewhere that my accusers didn’t even know about.”
We have to wait and let the Lord judge us. I have to be faithful to the Lord and not worry about reputation, and not take criticism personally—getting my ego involved. I have learned that whenever an unjust criticism comes, I thank the Lord for using it to humble and refine me. I commit myself to the faithful care of my Creator as Jesus committed Himself to His Father. Let God defend me if I’m worthy of defending. I will defend the truth, I will defend Christ, I will defend the Bible, but I am not going to defend John MacArthur. When someone criticizes me, I would just rather say, “Pray for me. Thank you for caring enough to share your concern. I want to be all that God wants me to be.”
SUSTAINING A PASTORAL MINISTRY
Church Growth
How do you react to the perceived dichotomy of a big church versus a small church?
Size may relate to different cultures and demographics. It is true that some are smaller than they should be because of sin or unfaithfulness—some are larger than they should be because of compromise. But God obviously has sovereign purposes for big ones as he has purposes for small ones. They are all just pieces of the one body of Christ on earth—size is not the issue. Scriptural integrity and faithfulness to God are the only issues.
In England during the Puritan era, those profound men were preaching to 150 to 300 people in towns and villages. Later, C. H. Spurgeon preached to 4,000 in London. God has His reasons for what He does and what He allows in a given place and time. But God is always building His church sovereignly—and all the elect will be gathered in. God has not stopped the fragmentation of the church into so many denominations and congregations, but it is probably true that if all the little churches in certain areas came together to begin one large church, they would have a greater impact, more exhilarating worship, and less trouble trying to find leaders, since it would only take one gifted preacher to feed them all. Personal ministry and small groups could still develop. Nevertheless, God measures the success of each local church, not by its size or reputation, but by its devotion to truth and to purity.
What is the right balance between church growth that is energized by the Spirit and the human effort we put into church growth?
I think that when church growth is accomplished by the Word and the Spirit of God on a sound spiritual level, it is wonderful. The Lord will grow His church. It is a travesty when growth is engineered by unbiblical means of human technique involving manipulation, psychology, or gimmickry and becomes humanly engineered, not emphasizing the Scripture or following the priorities or the theology God has given in Scripture. For example, whatever creative things we do to evangelize, we have to remember that man is totally depraved.
Therefore, we understand that for him to be saved, God has to work in his heart and totally change him. That is a work of God, not a work of man. If we do not understand the theology regarding man’s nature, then we might think that we could manipulate His will by our clever words, music, or programs.
I think much of the church growth movement of today involves human manipulation. There are a lot of techniques that do not build on the Word of God or a truly spiritual basis. When the technique tries to manipulate the heart of man, does not recognize salvation as all of God, or downplays the Word of God to make Christianity more palatable, then it is unbiblical and unacceptable to the Lord.
The terms seeker service, user-friendly church, and churching the unchurched all have a high profile in our day. How do you react to them?
First of all, no man seeks after God, but God does seek true worshipers. So there’s one seeker in the church that we should be most concerned about—God, who seeks true worshipers. Only those God has sought first will seek Him. The church should be user-friendly to believers who are living in righteousness and gather to worship. It will be unfriendly to sinners who reject the Lord.
Churching the unchurched is an absolute fallacy—it is like purposing to let the tares in. It is absolutely bizarre to want to make unsaved people feel comfortable in a church. The church is not a building—the church is a group of worshiping, redeemed, and sanctified people among whom an unbeliever should feel either miserable, convicted, and drawn to Christ, or else alienated and isolated. Only if the church hides its message and ceases to be what God designed the church to be, can it make an unbeliever comfortable. The people of the church must be friendly and loving toward the unsaved and sinful who attend, but even in evangelism they must never hedge on confronting sin and proclaiming the offense of the gospel.
You have survived a number of building programs at Grace Church. What is the secret?
The secret for me was to let the lay leaders guide such projects and to stay out of them myself. I do not think I can remember attending more than five meetings about new buildings in twenty-five years. We never had trouble with raising money to build, because we never built a building until the need was so pressing that we were just crying “uncle” out of desperation. We never built an edifice or monument to the church or to ourselves.
At one point we were so crowded that we had three worship services every Sunday morning—people were sitting outside and listening to a loudspeaker, and we had to turn kids away from Sunday school and children from the nursery. In other words, we were at the wall and our people saw it and understood the pressing need.
We always built frugally, as inexpensively and yet with as much quality as we could. We always had the full and unanimous support of our elders so that we could go back to our people and tell them we want their support in this because we all believe it is God’s will. Their trust in the spiritual wisdom of their leaders and the obvious need always made them willing followers.
If there were features in the building relating to my particular functions, they asked me what I wanted—things such as what kind of pulpit, platform, congregational configuration, baptistry, office setup, etc. It has been important for our church that no egos have been involved, that we are doing it frugally, and that we have only minimal borrowing after raising most, if not all, of the money up-front.
We have a philosophy to raise as much of that money as possible on one Sunday rather than spending weeks and months of a campaign that usually eats away at the general giving. We have targeted one Sunday, months in advance, and set our focus on that. The people then take months to accumulate or pray for money to be able to give on that one Lord’s Day. It makes for a great time of joy because the sum is so large and the people all share in the joy together.
Since you believe so strongly in the sovereignty of God, does human creativity have any place in the church?
Of course, God has given us creative gifts, and He uses every believer in unique ways. God is sovereign in salvation, but not apart from human faith, not apart from the will to respond and obey. God is sovereign in sanctification, but not apart from obedience. And He is sovereign in the building of the church, but not apart from spiritual gifts and devoted service and fellowship. God has designed the ends but also the means to the ends.
God has given us fertile minds. The apostle Paul had a well-thought-out strategy. Upon entering a new city, he went to the synagogues first and tried to win Jews to Christ. When he had a group of converts from the synagogue, he would go on to evangelize the Gentiles. He knew the reverse would not work. If he went to the Gentiles first, the Jews would be very reluctant even to hear him, let alone accept his message.
You must think through careful strategies; you do anything you can to enhance every opportunity to present the gospel and bring out spiritual development. Believers and church leaders should be as creative as they possibly can be without violating divine priorities or principles.
It is amazing what the prophets did in getting the attention of the people. Sometimes putting on some rather bizarre demonstrations to draw a crowd. God has used a myriad means. Even our Lord Jesus used miracles as a means to collect a crowd. On the day of Pentecost, God used the speaking of languages to collect a crowd—a very creative way to get their attention. I think the Lord expects us to do appropriate things, but obviously within a framework of what is mandated in Scripture.
Staff Development and Relationships
What advice would you give to pastors on the hiring and discipling of church staff and moving them on when they are ready for greater responsibilities?
In 1 Timothy 3:6 Paul tells us not to lift up a novice. Before elevating any individual to this role, his giftedness, his capabilities, and his track record need to be thoroughly familiar. The man himself must be known. As the apostle Paul organized young churches, he selected men whom he knew. As I grew up, I watched my dad experience heartache because staff came in from outside and were not in tune with what was going on. I decided I would look inside to a very small circle of people whom I had known and discipled to staff the church. Whenever I brought somebody in cold turkey from the outside, with few exceptions, it was a bad experience.
Discipling a new staff member means spending time with him, taking him on trips, sharing conferences, etc. In the early years, when we had a smaller staff than we do now, I would meet with them every week. I would stop by their offices. I think that discipling is mostly informal. It must be more than just “they work for me and I give them things to do.” It must be a relationship-building process. Occasionally, I have given fellow pastors theological assignments to do, just to sharpen them in some area. I encourage them to share with me what they are doing, in an unofficial and friendly way. It is essential to pull them to your heart, because generally, if you are the senior pastor, they are pouring their life into you and your ministry. You are the one who rides the crest, and you are the one who has unique joys if the church grows. Since these faithful staff are not going to get the accolades that you get, they need to have a heart of real love and loyalty toward their senior pastor. They should know that, as much as they serve you, you also serve them.
With regard to staff pastors moving on, you have to remain sensitive to their growth, interest, and developing gifts. At times there may be internal movement. For example, men will start out in youth ministry, and after some years, they do not want to do that anymore, so you look at their gifts. If it is the kind of man you want to keep on the team, see what other areas of ministry open up. If it is time for him to go to another church to preach or to the mission field, stay close to him and help him through the process so that as he leaves, a bridge is built over which continued support may flow and on which he may return. Most pastors just let men go and do not sustain that friendship bridge, so they sever good relationships. It is important to sustain relationships so that when they go, the relationship is Christ-honoring. You have to be there to assist them and to demonstrate concern and commitment to them beyond their time with you and on through their life and ministry.
Over the years, how have you structured the most effective staff meetings?
That changes from time to time, but I look at staff meetings as primarily relationship-building. A minor component of a staff meeting is to talk over informational things and resolve issues. Having a special service, facing low offerings, or difficulty in the children’s division, should not be the main focus. Staff meetings center on building relationships. You need to be informal, warm, enthusiastic, and affirming.
I think there ought to be a sort of leveling of everybody so that the senior man does not come in with a personal agenda and dump it on everybody. It should be a time of fellowship, a time of prayer, a time to talk about marriage and family life, the joys of ministry, and the difficulties in ministry. And no one is in charge; rather, it is a time of common sharing. I lead only by wisdom in the discussion or by interpreting Scripture. There are times for giving strong directives about issues, but rarely in staff meetings do those occur. More often such issues were dealt with one-to-one.
By building strong and firm relationships, you sustain loyalty and faithfulness. If you treat your staff like functionaries who have a job to do, they will do it with a dutiful sort of mentality, but if they sense love for one another, they will work with a completely different motivation.
Second, it is a time to reinforce and settle issues of doctrine or to reaffirm or clarify principles of ministry that keep the work on a biblical course. It should be open to the point where everyone has the right to speak and nobody really dominates by force or position. Staff meeting is a team-building time, and I think the men need that fellowship every week.
What kind of relationship do you try to build with staff pastors?
You are asking these men to come alongside you, undergird you, help you, strengthen your ministry, pray for you, and do the work you do not have time to do. You cannot visit everybody, plan every event, and oversee every ministry, so you are asking them to come alongside and do that for you. The least you can do is build your heart into them.
It is obvious you cannot do that equally with all your men, if you have a large group as is the case in our church. There are men who are higher on the leadership chart with whom I work more closely and with whom I spend more intimate time. And some men need more attention in their development. The policy I have had with the others is that I am always available—any time they would ever need me.
Although Jesus had twelve apostles, even He had an inner circle (Peter, James, and John). The one thing that allowed the rest of the men to know His heart, even though He did not always call them into the inner circle, was that He always responded when they called Him.
That is the key. I think at the elders’ meetings I need to bare my heart—to be open and transparent about what moves me. That builds relationships. I don’t pontificate. I don’t want to dominate these meetings; I want to be one of many. I don’t want them to think I’m their boss; I want to be their guide, their shepherd, and their teacher. I want to help them to clarify doctrine, verify principles, and resolve issues by leading them through the process that is necessary to know the will of the Spirit.
What are your thoughts on the role of the church secretary and the pastor’s relationship to her?
Finding the right secretary is critical. She must be one who has been under your ministry for some time and has had some spiritual development and growth in your philosophy of ministry and teaching. She must be a person who is secure and does not need constant building up and affirmation. She needs to be smart and have extremely good people skills, since her kindness, wisdom, and understanding reflect the attitude of the pastor. Technical skills are necessary, but what really makes or breaks your office is the treatment people receive when they make contact with it. Very often they are not going to reach you personally; they are going to reach your secretary. Her sensitivity and love toward them, her depth of spirituality, her trustworthiness, and her character—along with her skills for managing many details with grace—are crucial.
I also think she needs a great memory. So much data channels through that office that her memory is really critical. Sometimes the issues are matters of life and death; sometimes people’s heavy burdens, important mail, calls that must be handled promptly—things easily lost in the distractions of a busy office. She must be able to manage all of that. She needs to be very organized.
In my own situation, it is my secretary who makes my very busy ministry work as smoothly as it does. Apart from her devotion and skill, my office would be chaotic. Since her working should entail no sacrifice in the home, a secretary should be an older woman, a woman with no children, or a single woman. Sometimes even a young man can be an excellent secretary.
Your secretary must be someone who is your wife’s friend and whom your wife appreciates and trusts, someone who can totally control her tongue and respect the trust of inside information. The highest level of integrity is essential. A lot of private information flows through your office about people’s lives, and you want to make sure not to betray their confidence.
Church Nurture
How do you keep the church from being culturalized like the Corinthians?
It is really very simple—you have to stay in the Word. The Scripture is a very old book written in a completely different culture, yet it is relevant to all. Culture may appear to change dramatically from time to time and place to place, but it only changes in a superficial sense. In reality, it does not change at all. The heart of man is the same as it has always been. His spiritual needs are the same as they have always been. If you just stay with the Word, you won’t become culturalized.
That has never really been a problem for us. I can honestly say that we have not had to battle the encroachment of culture into the frame or format of our ministry. I am sure there is some of that, like musical styles or certain expectations of soft seats, good P.A. system, or air conditioning, or a good parking lot. But I don’t see those as the satanic system. I don’t see those as part of the philosophical, antichrist spiritual culture. They are external things. You may have to adjust to those kinds of things to some degree because people in our society are not going to sit on a three-inch-wide wooden bench in a rainstorm and listen to you preach with a megaphone. But at the same time, it does not have to affect your theology. It may affect some of the outward accouterments, but we are still called to preach an unchanging word to people with unchanging spiritual needs.
What role do worship and music play in the church?
The Father seeks true worshipers, and His church is that group of true worshipers. We were redeemed to worship God. That is ultimately why we were saved, that we might be part of a redeemed and glorified humanity whose eternal purpose is worship. Worship, then, is the priority; it is the ultimate priority. Music is a God-given gift to allow spiritual expression to the Spirit-filled, worshiping heart. We are to worship in spirit and in truth. Truth has to do with the mind; spirit has to do with the passion, the emotion, the heart.
Music is a tremendous help in both those areas, since it speaks truth in the lyrics and provides emotion in the tune. The Scripture even says we are to speak to ourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. Music is a wonderful gift whereby emotion can express what our mind knows is true. It’s cathartic. It’s cleansing. It’s affirming. It’s instructive. Music that speaks the truth of divine revelation will honor the Lord when presented by people whose hearts are right before Him. I thank God for the lyrics that I could never write that give expression to what I feel. I thank God for melodies I could never score that give emotional expression to what I believe to be true. When the church comes together, that kind of expression is important; it gives the soul freedom to express its emotions. Music is also instructive because the lyrics rhyme and allow one to remember truths easier. In the worship service music also teaches and instructs to prepare the heart to receive the Word of God. There is no place in worship for a show or something that is intended to be entertainment. The music of the church is for the saints, not to be directed at unbelievers.
What are the secrets of staying power for a pastor who has been in the same church for thirty-six years?
At the heart of endurance is one’s relationship to the Lord and the belief that you are in the place of His will. Then comes family support. It would cut my heart out if my family lost heart for the church. If they love my church and ministry, then they keep my heart loving it. A lot of times family members, even a wife, will turn a man’s heart away from his beloved church because she is unhappy with certain things. Another source of enduring is having really strong friendships with your fellow pastors and the people who are in your church.
Seeing the hand of God on your ministry also helps immensely. If I did not experience the power of God and did not see blessing and spiritual growth, I would probably be feeling the need to go and let somebody else come in. I have been blessed with people who are thrilled with the Scriptures and who are growing and bringing others to Christ.
I am to the point where I have done the foundational work already, like when building a house. The tough work was digging the hole, pouring the concrete, laying the foundation, and building on it. Now I have the joy of leading the family that lives in the house. I am talking about more than building structures. If I were to go somewhere else, then I may have to do all the building over again. I couldn’t just step in and preach, teach, and write as I do now. But, in the end, I have stayed because God has never given me a sense of release.
Church Outreach
What role, if any, should the pastor play in evangelism in the local church?
As is the case in every aspect of spiritual leadership, the pastor is in a modeling role. I have always felt that I needed to be God’s instrument to lead others to Christ in my personal life as well as preaching the gospel. My world is not full of unbelievers, it is full of believers. But I endeavor to take those opportunities when God gives them to lead people to Christ. When you have such a privilege, let people know, so that they see you are committed to that enterprise.
It is also crucial to emphasize in preaching the priority of evangelism. Personally, I think, in the pattern of Ephesians 4:11, a church needs a teaching pastor and then it needs an evangelist who can mobilize the congregation to evangelism. The reason the Lord left His church on earth is evangelism. If all we were saved to do was worship, then we would go to heaven where worship is perfect. If we are saved to serve God, let’s go to glory where we can serve Him with glorified bodies. If we are saved for praise, let’s go where praise is perfect. But we are left here for the purpose of being His instruments to gather the remaining elect. I don’t think we have to be in a panic about that, but rather, we need to be available with an open heart so when God brings somebody across your path you are ready with a presentation of the gospel.
The people need to understand the condition of the lost; they need to know the reality of hell and judgement. That is part of what you preach and teach. While having a holy hatred of sin and sinners, they need to have a tender heart towards unbelievers. They need to feel responsible to reach out to them.
As I have said through the years, the church gathers to be edified, but it scatters to evangelize. Having leaders to oversee that whole area of evangelism, who mobilize people and provide various forms of training, is essential. We have always had evangelism training courses of several different natures in the church so that we can capture people at different points in their Christian development and train them how to evangelize effectively in their sphere of influence.
What is your view on church planting?
Well, I am certainly glad some folks followed the Lord’s leading and planted Grace Community Church. Generally, my view is that there are probably too many churches—about 350,000 in America. There are not enough gifted pastors to go around. I wish that we could move back toward a New Testament model where you had one city and one church. You might need more than that, of course, in large population centers. The idea of starting churches because there is one little nuance of doctrinal uniqueness or a different style is foolish. Churches should be planted in places where Christ is not named, by preaching the gospel and winning people to Christ. I admit there are places where a lot of churches exist, but none of them is faithful to the Word of God. Such a place may call for a church to be started by another strong church, which takes the oversight and helps support that new work.
How should the local church relate to the body of Christ worldwide?
We want to maintain the unity of the faith in the bond of peace. We want to pursue fellowship with those of like precious faith. We want to support other churches that are faithful to the Word. We want to send missionaries to various parts of the world. The first and primary thing is our Jerusalem—where we are. The other has to be an overflow of a dynamic, Spirit-led local ministry. A strong base is the key to everything. After all, that is where God has put the church, and that is where the priority of its ministry is.
Ministry Perspective
In your opinion, why is Grace Church so blessed?
Our blessing has come simply from the grace of our sovereign Lord. If Paul could say “I’m the chief of sinners,” I don’t know where that puts me. So it isn’t because of me that God has blessed Grace Church. But I do believe that what we have done through the years, very simply, is try to follow the New Testament teaching about what the church is to be. And that is the richness of our church; not the size, or programs, or influence. The size has to do with God’s purposes. The blessing, the joy, and the fervency of the ministries at Grace Church have come because we are so serious about the Scripture. There is pervasive devotion and dedication to the Word of God and whatever it says. We want to preach it and teach it and live it. I know God blesses His truth; it is not our great ideas, but faithfulness to the Word. I never wanted to have to ask myself if I built the church or if Jesus was building His church, so we worked hard to just do biblical ministry biblically. The biggest challenge, as in preaching, is getting out of the way of the Word and the Spirit so God can speak and move.
After thirty-six years of pastoring the same church, what is your perspective on ministry?
It is so simple. My goal is to walk right before the Lord and pour my life into my wife and family so that we may establish, by God’s grace, a godly home. Then I preach and teach the Word as faithfully as I can, build up faithful men who can multiply themselves in the other men and women of the congregation, and then minister on a personal level as I am able.
Everything is built on what we understand Scripture to teach and the pattern for ministry it clearly lays out: edifying, leading people to the Lord’s Table, baptizing, discipling, training, evangelizing locally, and sending to the fields of the world. All such efforts are led by a plurality of godly men who are devoted to the Word of God and who will faithfully teach, preach, and apply it to the people. I also think it’s crucial for them to lead the people in the confrontation of sin, calling them to holy living, and being involved in the refuting of doctrinal error. We have to do the warning side of ministry, too.
As you look forward to the next twenty-five years of ministry, what challenges excite you?
My church still excites me and is still a tremendous challenge. I am challenged because Los Angeles is the most racially mixed city in America. I am challenged because there are vast millions of people pouring into our city who need to hear the gospel. I could never go to all places they come from, but they are coming to us. I am challenged to see young people educated and young men go into ministry. The Master’s College and Seminary provides the most unique opportunity for that to occur. I am challenged to continue to preach the Word to a new generation. I am excited to speak to church members for the strengthening of their knowledge of truth, for their holiness, and for their purity in doctrine.
In the thirty-six years I have been in the church I have seen a lot of faces come and go through our doors. Some of the people who were there long ago are gone, and brand new people have replaced them. It keeps changing—ebbing and flowing. In many ways Grace Church is as fresh and as new a church now as it was at any point in the thirty-six years I have served there, because there are so many new people. I see our congregation getting younger, which means it is a dynamic ministry in the lives of the new generation, especially young couples.
I also want to continue writing. That challenges me. The issues that face the church just continue to mount and it is exciting to address those and help people see their way through them biblically.
My life is in God’s hand, and I serve Him first—that is always challenging. In fact, the unending challenge for me is to become like Christ.