Into The Mystic: When Johnny Met Tommy
Interview by Tommy Vance R.I.P.
Additional Material by Kris Needs and Rob Johnstone
‘I just like all music’. John Lydon
John Lydon’s appearance on the late Tommy Vance’s Saturday evening Capital Radio show (Britain’s first commercial radio station, then available only to the Greater London area), broadcast live on 16 July 1977, caused a stir in more ways than one. Firstly, it came at a time when the besieged Lydon wasn’t talking to the press. The Pistols were at the height of their Jubilee and label-hopping notoriety. Lydon had been attacked in the street and in the tabloids. He agreed to do Vance’s show because he got a chance to play his favourite records and talk about music. For John, this came as some welcome light relief, although he still got to talk about his life and the incredible pressure on himself and his group. The other notable thing about the appearance was Lydon’s choice of music. At a time when punk seemed to be already getting predictable and formu-larised, he displayed an eclectic range of records by artists he had liked since school and none by other punk bands.
Johnny
Tommy
Many of the artists he chose were mavericks, either considered to be ‘out there’ or ahead of their time. Captain Beefheart, Can, Kevin Coyne, Tim Buckley and Peter Hammill had always provided diamonds in the mire of progressive rock and pop pap, but to have punk rock’s most infamous figure singing their praises was shocking, but to many of similar inclination, inspirational. Lydon’s ‘coming out’ meant you didn’t have to be ashamed of some of those albums acquired before ‘Year Zero’. It also cemented the bond between punk and reggae, stoked by Don Letts at the Roxy. Lydon’s selection - a statement in itself – also indicated that his diverse taste could well lead to something totally different in the future. After being introduced as ‘Johnny Rotten - A Punk And His Music’, Lydon kicked off with Tim Buckley’s ‘Sweet Surrender’ and Vance started the interview. At the time it was fascinating and refreshing to hear Lydon in non-confrontational mode with the Media.
If you could start again, would you do it exactly the same way?
Yeah, it wasn’t as laid out as that. We just did it. It was spontaneous. That’s the only way you should do anything, ’cause it’s honest. You find out in the future that’s it’s not such fun. It’s fashionable to believe that Malcolm McLaren dictates to us, but that’s just not true. If anything he’s like the fifth member of the band. We have just as much say in him as anything (laughs). What really amuses me is the way they say Malcolm controls the press. Media manipulator. The point of it all is that he done nothing. He just sat back and let them garble out their own rubbish, and they did.
Somebody told me he’s a fascist.
That’s absolute rubbish. He couldn’t be. He’s a Jew for a start.
There’s got to be a first record that gave you musical influences or turned you on. Any ideas what it might have been?
Oh God, no! I couldn’t tell you anything like that. I’ve liked music since the first day I began living. I just like all music. I remember Ready Steady Go! when I was small. That was great fun. And I had a plastic Beatles wig. That’s what started me buying records. I felt a part of it. In recent years, over the 70s, I haven’t felt a part of anything in particular. Like, Bowie was good for a while but you couldn’t really get into it ’cause you didn’t get the impression he believed in what he was doing. I dunno what he was up to.
Not even at any stage of his career? Do you think he was always phoney or putting on an act?
I dunno. He was like a real bad drag queen. Some drag queens are very good. He wasn’t. Bad stuff. ‘Rebel Rebel’ was a good single. It’s about the New York Dolls, I think.
Do you ever sit back – and under the circumstances you’ve got plenty of time to do that because...
(Cuts in) No sir... I ain’t got nothing else to do but sit back. Not being able to play ain’t much fun. Not when you’re in a band and you want to get on with it. It’s only for the moment. We’re in limbo.
How do you propose to get out?
I don’t know, I really just don’t know. But we will. We’ll never give up.
Whether you like it or whether you don’t, you are a figurehead of a certain type of movement. Do you ever sit back and look at the movement, the way it’s going?
Yeah, I do all the time. A lot of it’s rubbish. I mean real rubbish, pathetic and just giving it all a terrible bad name. A lot of bands are just ruining it. They’re either getting too much into the star trip or they’re going the exact opposite way. Neither way is really honest. If you know what you’re doing you can completely ignore the whole damn thing, which is what we’ve always done until some silly press man decides to ask us what we think of The Rolling Stones. They don’t bother me.
Anything by The Rolling Stones you admire?
No.
Nothing?
Nothing! I’ve never really liked any of those 60s bands. They’re all just a terrible scratching sound.
What would you do if someone came up to you and said, ‘You’re to blame for all this’?
I’d ask them to explain themselves. If someone gives me a valid reason I’ll listen. I don’t mind.
Here’s an album by Fred Locks, Black Star Liner.
(Assumes Northern accent) And there’s nowt better than that going round. (Back to normal voice) The only reason I like this album – it’s pretty lame – is ’cause one of the songs is called ‘These Walls’, which is really good. It’s about walls surrounding him wherever he goes. Paranoia.
You talk about paranoia with a smile on your face but paranoia, clinically, is something that knocks out the smiles in people.
If you live in London you’re paranoid ’cause it’s so depressing. I mean, how many times have you been stuck in your room wondering where you can go because you got all this energy to get rid of and you just want to have some fun? There’s just nowhere to go... (stops) And this is amazingly straight. I hate talking into this mic. Is it right you used to do the reggae programme?
Yeah. I like reggae because for a long time I thought it was the only stream of music in which people were trying to do different things like overdubs, echoes…
They just love sound, any sound, right down to, to... like that Culture single - car horns, babies crying....And why not? It’s only sound. Music.
Where did you go to school?
This poxy Roman Catholic thing. All they done was teach me religion. Didn’t give a damn about your education. I mean, that’s not important, is it? Just as long as you go out being a priest.
Which you haven’t become.
Well, no. That kind of forcing ideas on you when you don’t want to know is bound to get the opposite reaction. They don’t let you work it out for yourself. And that’s why I hate schools. You’re not given a choice. It’s not free.
Can you think of any better system of educating people?
No I can’t! I just know that one’s not right. I wouldn’t dare. It’s out of my depth. I have nothing to do with that side of things. I haven’t been to university and studied all the right attitudes, so I don’t know. (Fades in Doctor Alamantado’s ‘Born For A Purpose’) This is it – ‘Born For A Purpose’, right? Now this record, just after I got my brains kicked out, I went home and played it and there’s a verse in it which goes, ‘If you have no reason for living, don’t determine my life’. Cause the same thing happened to him. He got run over because he was a dread.
That’s a big pile of reggae records for someone in a white band.
Come round my place sometime! I was brought up on it, right from the skinhead days when reggae was going around. I like a lot of soul as well. I borrowed all my soul stuff. Just to get these was a real strain ’cause I ain’t got a record player at the moment, so I have to pass them around, cause music’s for listening to, not to store away in a bloody cupboard. Yeah, I love my music.
I get the impression you really know what you’re talking about. Do you?
Well, I think so. I hope so! If I don’t I’m in a real bad state. Yeah, I think I do, yeah. Yeah. What can I say to that? I don’t know. I can’t swear, or spit.
What I really mean is that you take it really seriously.
Yeah, I do. I take the band really serious. I’m not going to have people knock them for ignorant reasons. I’m annoyed that the majority of so-called intelligent people would rather believe what they read in the Daily Mirror, knowing that papers like that are rubbish. Scandal. It’s stupid. I just thought everyone knew that. I was proved wrong. People like to believe the worst.
Do you resent the way people view you?
No, not at all. I don’t care. If they get me wrong that’s their problem. Just keep it to themselves. When they go out on the streets looking for me that’s another kettle of fish. It’s pathetic of them. Next question.
How many times have you been beaten up?
Loads. But that’s just London at the moment. It’s a violent town. Gangs strolling the streets. It’s very easy to pick on one person and smash his head in. It’s a big laugh for them.
I’ve only heard this next man’s name – Peter Hammill.
He’s great. A true original. If you listen to his solo albums I’m damn sure Bowie copied a lot off this geezer. The credit he deserves has just not been given to him.
This album is called Nadir’s Big Chance. Can you give me a track?
Yeah. ‘The Institute Of Mental Health Is Burning’. What’s that other one? Oh God, the bastard hasn’t written them in the right order. ‘Nobody’s Business’. That’s it. That’s really good. And it’s about punks. He didn’t mean it to be, but it’s true. (Sings) ‘You’re nobody’s, nobody’s business’.
Johnny’s Choice
1.Tim Buckley – Sweet Surrender
2.The Creation – Life Is Just Beginning
3.David Bowie – Rebel Rebel
4.The Chieftains – Jig A Jig
5.Augustus Pablo – King Tubby Meets The Rockers Uptown
6.Gary Glitter – Doin’ All Right With The Boys
7.Fred Locks – Walls
8.Culture – I’m Not Ashamed
9.Dr Alimantado – Born For A Purpose
10.Bobby Byrd – Back From The Dead
11.Neil Young – Revolution Blues
12.Lou Reed – Men Of Good Fortune
13.Peter Hammill – The Institute Of Mental Health Is Burning
14.Aswad – Jah Wonderful
15.Captain Beefheart – The Blimp
16.Kevin Coyne – Eastbourne Ladies
17.Nico – Janitor Of Lunacy
18.Ken Boothe – Is It Because I’m Black?
19.John Cale – Legs Larry At The Television Centre
20.Third Ear Band – Fleance
21.Can – Halleluhwah
22.Peter Tosh – Legalise It
During the course of the show, the Sex Pistols’ ‘Did You No Wrong’ was played (between Neil Young and Lou Reed), following Rotten’s description of being beaten up in London. This was not one of his selections however, but added by the producers as it presumably appeared relevant to the topic of conversation. It had just been released as B’ Side to ‘God Save The Queen’. It was rather a strange choice for a Pistols’ track because, although uncredited at the time, this song was written almost exclusively by Wally Nightingale. However, it should be remembered that this and it’s A-Side were the only two Sex Pistols tracks available commercially at the time of the show - the ‘Anarchy’ 45 having been deleted when the band were removed from EMI. The Pistols debut album of course, wouldn’t be released until October that year.