INTERVIEW 3: Nothing Scares Me

Oval Office, The White House

December 13, 2019

TRUMP:

Nixon was under a table. [crosstalk] Nixon was a mess. I’m not a mess. Do you know what you said to me the last time? I told my wife. I told a few people… You said, you act like you just won the election. You’re under impeachment. You said that to me. I thought it was a cool line.

COMMENTARY: I interviewed Trump at the White House around 2.30 p.m. in the afternoon of Friday, December 13, 2019. Deputy Press Secretary Hogan Gidley and Deputy Chief of Staff for Communications Dan Scavino were also present. I wanted to see how Trump was handling impeachment. The House Judiciary Committee had voted to impeach him 23 to 17 along strict party lines. The president seemed unbothered, even cheery, and had time for a one-and-a-half-hour interview in the Oval Office.

BW:

Sir, you’re so nice to let me come by on this day.

TRUMP:

You still look good. This guy doesn’t change. [laughter]

BW:

So do you. Yes, I do.

TRUMP:

So here’s—for you.

BW:

Oh, it’s the picture. Okay, good.

TRUMP:

Sort of cool. Yeah, sort of cool.

BW:

You and I sitting, everyone else standing.

President Trump gave Woodward a photo of their previous interview conducted in the Oval Office on December 5, 2019. Also pictured, from left to right, are Acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney, Counselor to the President Kellyanne Conway, Principal Deputy Press Secretary Hogan Gidley, Woodward, and Vice President Mike Pence.

TRUMP:

Everyone else—that’s the way it’s supposed to be. [laughter]

BW:

Okay. That’s great.

TRUMP:

You know what, [?]. Take one over here. Bob, come on over here for a second. We’re going to get one. One normal one.

BW:

The clean desk.

TRUMP:

Yeah. I always—have you ever seen my other room?

BW:

[laughs] Thank you.

[An aide fixes Trump’s tie. They take a photo.]

TRUMP:

I like the long ties where you can—where this thing goes in the back. Don’t you hate it when it flies?

BW:

Yes, that’s right.

TRUMP:

I’ll show you something, Bob. Come on back. You’ve been back here at some point in your life.

BW:

Oh, yes sir.

TRUMP:

Over the years. I’ll show you. Where you do the work, right?

BW:

Oh, yeah, this is the dining room.

TRUMP:

So this is…

COMMENTARY: Trump took me on a tour of his hideaway office, the spot where President Clinton had secretly met with White House intern Monica Lewinsky. The “Monica Room,” Trump called it, and gave a knowing smirk. We returned to the Oval Office for the interview. He wanted to give me some photographs taken at our last meeting.

[They leave the room and are inaudible; they return.]

BW:

Oh, you gave me a bunch.

TRUMP:

I wanted to show you—do we have any of the big ones? Okay. Did you read those letters?

BW:

I’ve got them. Listen—

TRUMP:

Oh, you didn’t read them?

BW:

Oh, of course I read them. I marked them up. I thought about—

TRUMP:

It’s something, right?

BW:

See, this is the—this is my job now: to piece together what really happens.

COMMENTARY: Trump is referring to the eleven personal letters Kim Jong Un had written to him. Trump had given me what he called “exclusive access” to Kim’s letters. He handed me some photos of himself with the North Korean leader.

TRUMP:

So look at these, Bob.

BW:

Look at those. Oh, yeah.

TRUMP:

Nobody else has that.

BW:

Huh. Look at that. Huh. Can I take one?

TRUMP:

Yeah.

BW:

Okay, good. That’s what I need.

TRUMP:

Here let me give you a good one.

COMMENTARY: Trump was riffling through photographs of himself and Kim Jong Un.

TRUMP:

See, he’s happy there. Now look. He doesn’t smile. You never saw him smile. He’s happy with me. You understand that, Bob?

BW:

These are big pictures. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

TRUMP:

He’s happy.

COMMENTARY: My google search showed Kim smiling with many others, including South Korean President Moon.

BW:

Look at that. Listen, those letters—now, what I need—

TRUMP:

You did look at them right, and read them?

BW:

Listen, read them, I memorized them. About the fantasy film? He said the next meeting’s going to be a fantasy film. What’d you think of that?

TRUMP:

Nobody else has them.

BW:

Okay. I hope that stays.

TRUMP:

Nobody else has them. But I want you to treat them with respect. I haven’t [shared them] with anybody.

BW:

Understand. Understand.

TRUMP:

And don’t say I gave them to you, okay?

BW:

Okay. I—

TRUMP:

I think it’s okay. Normally I wouldn’t—I wasn’t going to give them to Bob, you know. What’d, you make a Photostat of them or something?

BW:

No, I dictated them into a tape recorder.

TRUMP:

[laughs] Really?

BW:

Yes. And my assistant—

TRUMP:

But you were surprised by them, right?

BW:

Yes, because—

TRUMP:

I never saw these pictures.

BW:

—there were 11 of them, and it shows an evolving relationship of being tough and—

TRUMP:

Yeah, he wants to get along with me.

BW:

—opening. Yes.

TRUMP:

They say—Putin told me. Xi told me. I’m the only one he wants. He doesn’t want to talk to anybody else. You know it’s a hermit kingdom.

COMMENTARY: As you listen to this interview, remember that Kim Jong Un is an autocrat with a merciless record of systematic torture, assassination, and political imprisonment. Hundreds of thousands of people are held in gulag-style prisons and forced labor camps. There is no freedom of speech, no independent media.

BW:

So I have to—

TRUMP:

It’s a beautiful day.

BW:

—because of this day, I would like to start to ask—

TRUMP:

Go ahead, tell me.

BW:

—for the book, sir, what’s your relationship with Mitch McConnell?

TRUMP:

Very good.

BW:

Probably the most important relationship in Washington in the next couple of months, or maybe year.

TRUMP:

So it’s a very good relationship. And people are surprised, because we’re sort of opposites. We’ve put in more judges—you know, judges at a record level. Record. We have every record, other than George Washington, who has a higher percentage. He had 100 percent, but he only had 16 judges. Okay? I’m going to be up to 167 judges. And it’ll be 182 before normalization.

BW:

Yes, you mentioned—

TRUMP:

A hundred and eighty-two judges.

BW:

So what does McConnell say to you, President Trump, about what’s going on on the Hill and what the Senate’s going to do?

TRUMP:

So we talk. You know, this is not a legal process, this is a political process. Right?

BW:

I’ve noticed.

TRUMP:

And you’ve seen his statements.

BW:

Yes, right.

TRUMP:

I mean, rather than what he says to me, he says to me the same thing he says to television—

BW:

He calls you? Talks to you?

TRUMP:

I speak to him about it. And I—

BW:

Tell me what he said and what—

TRUMP:

Look, number one, I did nothing wrong. Legitimately.

BW:

I understand your point.

TRUMP:

Nothing wrong. I had a conversation with a guy. You’re going to impeach the president of the United States for having—as I say, because it saves a lot of words—a perfect conversation with a man who’s a new, young president who ran on a whole corruption thing, right?

COMMENTARY: Trump is referring to Ukrainian president Zelensky.

TRUMP:

And then they take the conversation, and you have a corrupt politician named Adam Schiff who made up my statement.

COMMENTARY: Democratic Representative Adam Schiff of California was then the Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee.

BW:

I’ve gone through it, sir. So what does McConnell say to you and what do you say to him? What’s the—if I were listening in, what’s the back and forth?

TRUMP:

I believe that Mitch feels that I’ve been treated very unfairly.

BW:

He says so to you?

TRUMP:

I think he says it to television. I think he says it to you, if you talk to him about it.

BW:

I will.

TRUMP:

And as you saw last night, he said there’s not even a zero percent chance that he ever leaves office because of this hoax. So he said it last night on television, so I’m just—you could quote him—

BW:

And that’s what he says to you?

TRUMP:

Well, he doesn’t have to say it to me. And the reason he doesn’t, ’cause I know all the senators. I get along unbelievably with all of those people. Other than Romney. And even Romney I think knows a certain fairness, okay? Romney for different reasons. You know, someday I’ll explain that to you. But I get along very well with them. They’re all friends of mine. I have a great relationship. Other presidents don’t have a great relationship. Nixon, they hated him.

BW:

Oh, I know.

TRUMP:

Because he was arrogant and, you know, very difficult. You know that story much better than me. The last one I’m going to talk to about that is you. But they walked up, they couldn’t have been happier. With me it’s just the opposite. Every one of them’s a friend of mine, practically. You know? Same thing with the congressmen. Look, nobody’s ever seen congressmen, Republicans, fighting like they fought yesterday. But they’ve been fighting that way for three months. You know, some have become major stars because of it. But you look at them against the Democrats, it was like the New England Patriots playing your high school football team.

BW:

Okay. Here’s my hypothesis.

TRUMP:

My point is about Mitch. I think Mitch thinks I’m being very unfairly treated.

BW:

And you talk to him regularly?

TRUMP:

I do. I get along with him great.

BW:

Okay. I think it’s the most important relationship—

TRUMP:

You know what Mitch’s biggest thing is in the whole world? His judges.

COMMENTARY: McConnell’s public comments about Trump did not always convey the level of disdain he shared privately with his Republican colleagues in the Senate.

For instance, in 2017, the State Department had strongly denied that Secretary Rex Tillerson had called Trump a “moron.”

“Do you know why Tillerson was able to say he didn’t call the president a ‘moron’?” McConnell asked his colleagues in the Senate cloakroom. “Because he called him a ‘fucking moron.’ ”

I returned to the topic of North Korea. I wanted to know what Trump had written to Kim.

BW:

Can I get your letters to Kim?

TRUMP:

I’ll let you read the letters. Just treat them respectfully.

BW:

Okay. Here’s my policy assumption in doing this book. Your predecessors, George W. Bush, Obama, didn’t figure out how to deal with Kim.

TRUMP:

They couldn’t—they called him all the time.

BW:

And you came in—and this I need an answer to—you threw him the ultimate curveball. Other words, I’ll meet with you. I’ll treat you with respect.

TRUMP:

But before I did that, Bob—there was never tougher rhetoric in the history of our country.

BW:

I know. For the first year. You know, just blasting away at each other.

TRUMP:

Blasting. Okay. Without that, it wouldn’t have ever happened.

[Trump starts thumping the desk]

BW:

Okay. So how did you develop, and with whom—

TRUMP:

So we met each other—

BW:

—or is this Donald Trump by himself saying, we have to change the game? I will dare to go praise him, he’s my friend, let’s meet. I’ll come to your house. Because that’s what happened. How did you get there?

TRUMP:

So we had very, very tough, volatile rhetoric. I called him Little Rocket Man.

BW:

Almost a war. Almost a war, as we talked about.

TRUMP:

There were those that said, please don’t go there. Please, please, please. You know.

BW:

Yeah.

TRUMP:

But you had no choice. It was a very bad situation, actually. You know? He said I’ve got a button on my desk. And I said, I have a bigger button, and my button works. You know. Yours doesn’t. That was one of the kinder things.

BW:

Why did you take the—

TRUMP:

You do say that nobody’s ever received letters like that from the family?

BW:

Well, of course. Yeah.

TRUMP:

He doesn’t write letters. [thumping table]

BW:

But you changed the direction of—if you will—history, by saying let’s meet this guy. Let’s treat him with respect. Let’s embrace him. Let’s go to the DMZ as you did.

TRUMP:

He didn’t respect Obama. Didn’t like him, didn’t respect him. Thought he was an asshole. Okay. Bush was too stupid to know what was happening. Bush has no clue. Okay? That’s why we ended up in the Middle East and we spent $8 trillion there. When I did this, I said, what do we have to lose? You know, my famous expression with African American. What do we have to lose?

BW:

And what comes through—

TRUMP:

You know? I haven’t taken sanctions off.

BW:

—if he realizes how important it was to him. He keeps telling—Your Excellency, Your Excellency, this is going to go down in history. This is going to be—

TRUMP:

And you’ve seen what he called Obama. What he called others. He didn’t call them Your Excellency.

BW:

I understand that. And you see there’s a pivot in the strategy, or the approach, and I’m trying to figure out where it came from.

TRUMP:

So—

BW:

Is this you alone?

TRUMP:

No.

BW:

Is this Lindsey Graham?

TRUMP:

So, okay, it’s very complicated. No.

BW:

Is this McMaster?

TRUMP:

It’s very complicated.

BW:

Who? Great.

TRUMP:

This is me, but it’s very complicated. Because I always ask the one question, why are we defending South Korea? See, I have that, you know. Why are we doing this? And I said to South Korea—I told you about the $500 million, right?

BW:

Yes.

TRUMP:

They’re paying $500 million more. It took me one day. I said, we’re defending you, and we’re losing a fortune. And you’re paying the same thing for 30 years, which is nothing. You pay almost nothing. You’ve got to pay. And they’ve agreed to $500 million. Now I’m asking for billions more. But I say—you know, it’s a rich country. I say, so we’re defending you, we’re allowing you to exist. Why are we doing that? Why do we care? We’re 8,500 miles away. Why do we care? Why do we have our 32,000 soldiers over there, willing to fight for you? And you’re not paying us? Why?

BW:

Moon is saying to you, ah, but we’re under siege because we’ve got North Korea. Right?

TRUMP:

Moon is saying because you’ve always done it. They have the same—Abe has the same—I ask all these countries, why are we doing this? I ask Abe. He’s a friend of mine. I say, why are we defending Japan? You’re a rich country. Why are we defending you and you’re paying us a tiny fraction of the cost?

COMMENTARY: Moon was the president of South Korea. Abe was the Japanese Prime Minister.

BW:

And the establishment of course hates that. The—

TRUMP:

The establishment hates that question, which shows you how stupid the establishment is. Okay?

BW:

So how do you pivot—

TRUMP:

And by the way, Bob, they’re willing to pay.

BW:

But the outreach—

TRUMP:

You know how bad the Japan deal is? If Japan gets attacked, we have to protect them. If we get attacked, Japan doesn’t have to protect us.

BW:

I understand. Well, they—

TRUMP:

So I said, Shinzo, we have to change that.

BW:

So tell me in your own words, your first meeting in Singapore with Kim.

TRUMP:

Okay.

BW:

What happened?

COMMENTARY: The first meeting between Trump and Kim Jong Un was held on June 12th, 2018, at a summit in Singapore.

TRUMP:

So what happened, if you know the big thing, the big breakthrough was South Korea had the Olympics.

BW:

Yes, we talked about that.

TRUMP:

There was unbelievable hostility. They weren’t selling tickets. All of a sudden, Kim lets through his people—through me, through Switzerland, etc., etc., let’s meet. They would love to help with the Olympics. I said, what’s that all about? This is right in the middle of horrendous dialogue. So anyway, that was the beginning. And then a delegation came over from South Korea and said that Chairman Kim would like to meet with you. I said, great, let’s meet. Now, you know Obama—

BW:

What did your advisers think?

TRUMP:

Just so you know, Obama and Bush were dying to meet. He didn’t want to—this is a man, you talk about an inch all your life, this is a man—when I had the pictures that I showed you, walking on the border, nobody else—I mean, I set that meeting up in five minutes through social media. I said, hey, I’m going to South Korea. Do you want to meet? Because you can’t, you know, talk to him—

BW:

So what happened at Singapore? Are there notes? Is there—

TRUMP:

We had a great relationship.

BW:

Yeah. I want to take readers to that moment.

TRUMP:

By the way, it was the most cameras. You know it was the most cameras? I’ve seen more cameras—

BW:

I want to find out—

TRUMP:

I think I’ve seen more cameras than any human being in history. Okay? You understand? I go to the helicopter, there’s like hundreds of them.

BW:

[laughs] Because they know you might give an interview and make news.

TRUMP:

Well, whatever. I always… It’s free. I get it for free. It costs me nothing. It’s called earned media. And you do earn it. [laughter]

BW:

You figured that out? You figured that out.

TRUMP:

They say I spent 25 percent what Hillary did, but I got $6 billion worth of earned media.

BW:

I believe that.

TRUMP:

And earned, you do earn it.

BW:

So how’d—Tell me as best you can recall what happened in Singapore, and what was going through your mind. Hey, I’m meeting this guy. Hey, he’s—

TRUMP:

The Singapore event was a monster. They had a thing set up for the media the likes of which you have never seen. Okay?

BW:

I understand.

TRUMP:

And this is all of Asia. All of the United—I’ve never seen a thing like it. Thousands. Thousands.

BW:

I accept that.

TRUMP:

Do we have any pictures of that? If you could see—

AIDE:

I’m sure we can probably get them, sir.

BW:

You—but I want to see what you thought of this man.

TRUMP:

Okay. Are you ready?

BW:

I mean, he’s not exactly Clark Gable.

TRUMP:

No, but he’s very smart.

BW:

We’ve talked about that.

TRUMP:

He’s very smart. Remember what you said? You said, bing, bing, and not smart. I said, no. Bing, bing, and brilliant.

BW:

Right.

TRUMP:

When you take over a country at 25—

BW:

Can I tell you this just for your own…

TRUMP:

Yes, go ahead.

BW:

People have said that, and then I’ve gone back to people and I’ve said, well, wait a minute. Really? Is he not smart? And people who were involved in all this kind of say, well, maybe he is smart.

TRUMP:

Uh, no. He’s far beyond smart. You know, he’s very smart. Okay?

BW:

So what’d you think when you saw him and started talking to him? And what happened?

TRUMP:

Okay, so we met—okay. So now we’re there, and everyone’s going crazy. Everything else. Finally we get to meet. We shook hands. You saw that?

BW:

Yes, of course.

TRUMP:

We shook hands. We turned to these cameras. I looked out and even I said, holy shit.

BW:

Okay.

TRUMP:

It was a wall of more than I think I’ve ever seen. More than the Academy Awards has ever had—

BW:

So what happened?

TRUMP:

Okay, so we shook—that was the first time we ever met. Then we left and we went and had a very long meeting. And we liked each other.

BW:

What did he say that caused you to like him?

TRUMP:

—like we’re smart people, but you have people that no matter what you do, you’re not going to like and they’re not going to like you. I have those people. You know, no matter—we’re smart. Like, we’re totally the smartest, right? We got along great.

BW:

What’d he say that caused this gravitational pull?

TRUMP:

We talked about his country. And I talked about the tremendous potential that his country had. I talked about the fact that I don’t want to remove him. I want him to lead the country to greatness. That it could be one of the great economic powers of the world. It’s locationally situated between China, Russia, and South Korea.

BW:

Understand.

TRUMP:

Think of it. You have on the border—

BW:

And so in one of those wonderful letters after the Singapore summit, he wrote to you, he knows that you’re going to deliver on your promise.

TRUMP:

Yeah.

BW:

What was your promise to him?

TRUMP:

Economic—tremendous economic—not paid for by the United States. Paid for by South Korea, Japan, and other countries in Asia. I said, why should the United States be paying for this? You understand, right?

BW:

Paying for defense, or an economic revival?

TRUMP:

No, economic development. Economic development. I said, you have—you know, I did sign an agreement. Do you have a copy of the agreement that I signed?

BW:

Yes. Yes, sir.

TRUMP:

You know the first line of that says, you will denuclearize.

BW:

Yes, I know.

TRUMP:

People forget that. I came back, and the fake news said, we didn’t get anything. We got a lot. He signed an agreement.

BW:

Well, in the letters he says yes, and then he’s kind of back-tracking. He says, let’s do it step by step.

TRUMP:

He has a hard time with the word denuclearization. He signed an agreement. He promised me. But he has a real hard time. He backs up. It’s really like, you know, somebody that’s in love with a house and they just can’t sell it. Okay? You know what I mean.

BW:

Yes. Exactly.

TRUMP:

And so we had a really good meeting. We really got along. It was a great chemistry.

BW:

Right. Okay.

TRUMP:

The word chemistry. You meet somebody and you have a good chemistry, and there is a lot of truth to it. You meet a woman. In one second, you know whether or not it’s all going to happen. Okay? Did you ever hear the expression—

BW:

[laughs] Yes, sir. [laughs] Yes.

TRUMP:

—In one second. It doesn’t take you 10 minutes, and it doesn’t take you six weeks. It’s like, whoa. We had very good chemistry together. We talked a lot. We could’ve talked for hours, with an interpreter. We could’ve talked for hours. We then had a lunch. He had people at the lunch. I’ve never seen anything like it. I’ve had many lunches with leaders, you know, where they have 20 people on each side. You know, the long table, and they have all their secretaries—he had people. They sat up at the table. Every single person was sitting up. By the way, he’s the total boss. You know when you hear, oh, maybe he doesn’t control—a general stood up. He snapped to attention, stood up. His chair was—there was no carpet, it was like a nice, beautiful wooden floor.

TRUMP:

His chair snapped back 20 feet. Hit the wall behind him.

BW:

The general’s?

TRUMP:

The general. He stood up. It’s like, you know, you stand up and boom, his legs hit—the chair went back, hit the wall. I said, holy shit. [laughter] And I joked. I said, I want you people to act like these people. You know, kidding to all my people.

BW:

Kidding, but not kidding. Because it’s not bad to have that kind of tight control.

TRUMP:

It was great. It was great.

BW:

He doesn’t have to deal with the Congress or a Supreme Court.

TRUMP:

Look. This general stood up. The chair went smashing back. I said, I want you people to behave like that. Man… Did you ever hear of Elton John? He said, no. I said, did you ever hear the song “Rocket Man”? No. I said, I did you a great favor. I called you Rocket Man. Think of yourself on a rocket flying over Japan. You’re Rocket Man. And I told you, he said, no, you called me Little Rocket Man. And it was a funny line, you know what I mean? He was—he didn’t like that.

BW:

He knew it. He knew what you’d said.

TRUMP:

He knew. Let me tell you, he knows. He’s a very smart guy.

BW:

And so you left the meeting thinking what? What’s going through the president’s head?

TRUMP:

When you say I left the meeting, or Singapore?

BW:

Singapore.

TRUMP:

I left Singapore saying we have a very good relationship. And that was it.

BW:

And did you think internally, ah, we’ve defused the—

TRUMP:

Oh, I did defuse. Oh.

BW:

Well, it kind of did.

TRUMP:

If Crooked Hillary—

BW:

Certainly the tensions—

TRUMP:

If Crooked Hillary Clinton got in, you would be in war within a month. It was ready to go, and he was totally prepared. And he expected it.

BW:

Did he tell you that?

TRUMP:

Ah, yes, he did.

BW:

He did?

TRUMP:

He was totally prepared to go. And he expected to go. But we met. We got along. There was unbelievable chemistry. I have great chemistry with President Xi of China. See we made a China deal today, a big one?

COMMENTARY: The United States and China had reached an agreement on phase one of a trade deal. As part of that agreement, China committed to buy $200 billion in U.S. goods and up to $40 billion in agricultural products. Later, China reneged on the deal.

TRUMP:

It’s funny: I get impeached on the same day I make a China deal. That’s a beauty. [laughter] But it’s impeachment-light. Do you agree with that? I call it light impeachment.

BW:

So the question is, who on your staff—is it Matt Pottinger, or who is the kind of person who helps you? That’s what—

TRUMP:

Nobody.

BW:

Really? It’s all in your bailiwick?

TRUMP:

I had one thing that really hurt me with him, I have a good relationship with John Bolton.

COMMENTARY: John Bolton was Trump’s former national security adviser.

TRUMP:

He was interviewed by Sleepy Eyes Chuck Todd on Meet the Press, who’s a sleepy son of a bitch. And John said, unfortunately, because Kim as I told you is a very brilliant guy, and he knows every word uttered from anybody of importance[’s] mouth. And John Bolton said, no, no, what we have in store for North Korea is the Libyan model. That was early on in John’s—

BW:

Yes. Short tenure.

TRUMP:

I said, tell me he didn’t say that. Because the Libyan model is where you take Qaddafi, throw him into a sewer ditch, piss on him, and shoot him simultaneously. You know they were pissing on him and shooting.

BW:

I know.

TRUMP:

He took 200 bullets to the head. There was no head. And they pissed on him. What John meant was—you know, he had a couple of nuclear weapons. They took it out. When John said that, I called. I said, tell me you didn’t say that.

BW:

What’d he say?

TRUMP:

He said, I really wasn’t referring to the way they killed him. I was referring to the way they’d—I said, they only think about—he died a rough death. So I said, all right. It’s done. Maybe he won’t see it. Five minutes later, a thing comes over the wire services: We will never die like Qaddafi. We will not use the Libyan model. They want—and I said, it really fucked me up.

BW:

I understand.

TRUMP:

Okay? Do you understand that?

BW:

But there’s no one playing second chair in this. This is you saying—

TRUMP:

So legitimately, you know it better than anybody. Is it true? Nobody else.

GIDLEY:

Nobody could do it.

TRUMP:

Nobody else. Okay. Then we had the second meeting in Singapore.

BW:

Yes.

TRUMP:

And it was different. And the reason it was different was…

BW:

The second was Hanoi. Yeah.

TRUMP:

I’m sorry. The first was—I meant in Hanoi. So—

BW:

What happened there?

TRUMP:

We go to Vietnam. And I land and I make a statement. That I’ve just landed in Vietnam. And that got a lot of ink. Anyway, we then had our meeting. And I left that meeting. You know, I left.

BW:

Yes, sir.

TRUMP:

I said, you’re not ready to make a deal. We spent two hours together, with our people. I spent a little time with him. Something happened. But it wasn’t something—

BW:

What was it?

TRUMP:

I don’t think it was anything. I think he just—Look, some people have a hard time doing things that are different from what they’ve been doing all their life.

BW:

Amen.

TRUMP:

I said, do you ever do anything other than send rockets up to the air? Why don’t we, like—let’s go and—let’s go to a movie together. You know, I said, kiddingly. Let’s go play a round of golf, even though rumor has it he shot an 18 and he’s better than Tiger Woods. [laughter] Did you ever hear that?

BW:

[laughing] No, I didn’t.

TRUMP:

That his father, him and his grandfather—you know the three, boom, boom, boom.

BW:

Yes, sir.

TRUMP:

He’s the toughest and the smartest of them all. I’m saying that.

BW:

Kim Jong Il was really tough. His father.

TRUMP:

They’re all tough. Yeah. His grandfather was tougher, from what I hear.

BW:

Okay.

TRUMP:

[whispers] He respects the grandfather the most. He totally admires the grandfather.

BW:

Okay. So what happened here?

TRUMP:

But here’s the thing. Nothing happened other than he just—

BW:

You’re talking exercises. He’s very upset about the exercises.

TRUMP:

Well, he was. But I don’t know that that was an excuse or not. Because in the meantime he’s testing—did you ever see the guns when they shot them into the ocean, the picture?

BW:

Yes. Oh wow.

TRUMP:

They were not nuclear, but they were a lot of guns. Like the Howitzer type.

BW:

Gets your attention, doesn’t it?

TRUMP:

Did you ever see a thing like that? The beach, the whole beach—they must’ve had 1,000 of them, right, into the ocean. You know, the whole thing.

BW:

What’d you think when you saw that?

TRUMP:

I thought it was pretty good firepower.

BW:

Scare you?

TRUMP:

No. Nothing scares me. You know why? Nothing scares me. If I was scared, I wouldn’t be doing an interview with you today. I’d be under a table with my thumb in my mouth. Okay? Like everybody else has been except me, because I’m different. But anyway. No, not scared. No, but I respected the power. There’s real power there.

BW:

And so then what happens next? So you get letters from him—I mean, these letters are such a—

TRUMP:

They’re very warm letters.

BW:

They’re very—he’s wooing you—

TRUMP:

You want a—I’ll get you a Coke.

BW:

No, I—he’s wooing you, you’re wooing him. It’s like a good date. Right?

TRUMP:

Whatever. I mean, you say it.

BW:

So then what happened? Why has it reached the point—let’s fast-forward to where we are now.

TRUMP:

Yeah. I spent time with him. And my whole life has been deals. I’ve done great. Far greater than people understand. I’ve done great. You know I’m going to release at some point before the election, I’m going to release my financial statements. I’ve done phenomenally. I’ve made unbelievable deals, from very little made great deals. That’s what I do. And I make deals. And I realized early into the second meeting in Hanoi, in Vietnam, that he wasn’t going to get where we had to go. He was willing to give up one of his nuclear sites—

BW:

Yeah. He’s got—

TRUMP:

But he’s got five of them.

BW:

Yeah.

TRUMP:

I said, listen, one doesn’t help and two doesn’t help. And three doesn’t help and four doesn’t help. And five does help. I said, look, it doesn’t help if you give up—But it is our biggest. I said, yeah, it’s also your oldest. Because I know every one of the sites. I know all of them, better than any of my people I know. You understand that. Better than anybody that works for—you know, my uncle, I told you, he was—Did I tell you? My uncle? Dr. John Trump.

BW:

Yes. Yes. Right.

TRUMP:

He was at MIT for 42 years or something. He was a great—

BW:

No, I don’t want anything.

[BW turns down a Coke and water.]

TRUMP:

You don’t want water?

BW:

No, sir.

TRUMP:

So my uncle—so I understand that stuff. You know, genetically. I have an uncle who was—The top person at MIT came to the office about a year ago. Brought me a whole package on Dr. John Trump. He said he was one of the greatest men. He was brilliant. I get that stuff.

BW:

Did Kim Jong Un, if I may ask this, did he say anything that was threatening? Because—

TRUMP:

Not even a little bit. No.

BW:

And you know he’s getting these—

TRUMP:

I just know he wasn’t ready.

BW:

—eight-axle mobile missile launchers from China—

TRUMP:

Yeah.

BW:

—that give him—

TRUMP:

But China—look.

BW:

Why’s China doing that?

TRUMP:

I have a great relationship there. Well, because I’m breaking China’s ass on trade.

BW:

President Xi hates those tariffs, because he has to find employment for 10 million people each year.

TRUMP:

Those tariffs are [whispers] destroying China.

BW:

Pardon?

TRUMP:

They’re really destroying—they’re hurting China so badly.

BW:

Yeah. And he’s mad about it.

TRUMP:

Nobody else understood how to negotiate—Look—

BW:

And somebody said that’s why he’s given North Korea these mobile missile launchers.

TRUMP:

No, it’s not that. Because you know what? He doesn’t want them to be nuclearized either.

BW:

Well, they are.

TRUMP:

He’s a lot closer to us. I know. Well, I know. But he doesn’t want it.

BW:

He’s playing a game, both sides.

TRUMP:

He is—look, I get along with him great, but he’s for them, I’m for us, and that’s the way it goes, I mean, you know, whether we like it or not. I tell him that. I say—and I don’t blame him. I say look, these presidents that allowed you to get away with this for so long, it’s crazy what they—they were taking $500 billion a year—billion with a “B”—out of this country for years and rebuilding China with the money they were taking out of here.

BW:

What does Xi say when you say that to him?

TRUMP:

Oh, oh. Do you understand? It’s like, what does he say? You read it. Okay? You read it. He knows it’s true. I was giving a speech—real fast. I was giving a speech in China, 5,000 people. You know, the so-called elite. And I’m giving the speech and I’m talking about how China’s ripped off our country. And Xi’s sitting right next to me. Right? And I’m saying, man— and he’s looking down and he’s sort of angry. And I said, hmm, I got a problem. I’ve got all these people—I’ve got him. He’s fuming. Because I’m talking about how China—I said, but China—and I mean this. I said, but I don’t blame China. I wish our people did what he did. What I really blame is our presidents for allowing this to happen. For 25 years, they’ve been ripping the hell out of this country. Okay.

COMMENTARY: Trump returned to talking about North Korea.

TRUMP:

I had a meeting. I wasn’t there very long. We did something amazing. You’ll see it if you want to check it. We had a press conference. He’s never done that before. He was good. He was really good. And these crazy fake news maniacs came in, screaming. What do you think? What do you think about this? What do you—And they asked him a couple of questions. And he gave great answers, but very quick, short answers. And then he goes, enough. Enough. I said, so you don’t have this problem, do you? He didn’t even know what—he’d never saw anything like this. His press is a little bit different. You know, when I went—I don’t know if you know—their security guards, when I went to that step in North Korea—you heard about it.

BW:

Yeah.

TRUMP:

His security guards took the Times—they threw them—they’re big, strong—[makes throwing noise] It was like a sea opened up. They were all on their ass, every one of them. Oh, they just pushed them. You know. There was a whole big thing about it. You’ll read about it.

BW:

Yeah.

TRUMP:

But here’s the thing. So we’re in Vietnam and after like a little while—because that’s what I do. Deals. Whether it’s this or that. You know, it’s deals. Deals are deals. And I said, you’re not there. What do you mean? You’re not ready to make a deal. I said that. I said, I’ve got to leave. You’re my friend. I think you’re a wonderful guy. But we’ve got to leave, because you’re not ready to make a deal.

BW:

Why’s he not ready to make a deal?

TRUMP:

And he never heard that before. Because nobody ever left him. And then they say because I don’t know if it’s true, but nobody’s ever seen these people. That the people that set that deal up were [whispers] executed. You know that.

BW:

Yes. At least the key person.

TRUMP:

Well, they’ve never seen people that were around, have never [whispers] been seen again. Sorry. So anyway. So what happens is, I say, you’re not ready. And he never heard that before. Not ready? But he wasn’t. He was willing to give up something but not enough.

BW:

Did you think—this is not—

TRUMP:

And I didn’t see staying there would help. You know, it’s supposed to be like for two or three days, and I left after the first day. I said, look, you’re not ready.

BW:

And he wasn’t ready because he wouldn’t fully denuclearize?

TRUMP:

I just don’t think he would have. That’s correct. I don’t think—

BW:

And is this an acquired negotiating tactic from New York, if I may ask?

TRUMP:

No, I think negotiating is a natural ability. Just like sinking a three-foot putt or just like hitting a home run. I really do. I think— I’ve seen guys, they study negotiation. No, I think either you can nego—I don’t know. I think a lot of things in life are—

BW:

But did you think, this is not a man who’s going to shoot a nuclear weapon or an ICBM at my country?

TRUMP:

I didn’t think they had the technology yet. It’s 8,000 miles away. Getting closer—

BW:

Yeah. Flatter trajectory and they could do it. Right?

TRUMP:

Getting closer. Yeah. Getting closer. But I don’t believe. Look, you have to understand. I always went in with one question: why are we doing this? Why is the United States defending a wealthy country, losing a fortune to protect a really wealthy country from a hostile neighbor? And the wealthy country is in Asia, 8,500 miles away. Why are we doing this?

BW:

But you’re aware that the possibility he might shoot that missile—

TRUMP:

There is a possibility, yeah. I think—

BW:

—drove the military crazy. Out at NORTHCOM, I mean, they have to—we talked about this last time—they delegate the presidential authority down to a two-star general to shoot down with an interceptor a missile—

TRUMP:

They’re always prepared. They have to be prepared. You have to be prepared.

BW:

So they conduct—when it looked like a missile was coming up, they—

TRUMP:

I don’t think it happens. I don’t think he wants to mess with us. I think he likes me, a lot.

BW:

Yeah. He could like you and still feel he’s in a pinch.

TRUMP:

Well, I know, but I don’t—Look, you read the letters.

BW:

I know. And that’s why the letters are—

TRUMP:

That changed your mind a lot I bet, when you read.

BW:

Yes, because—

TRUMP:

The level of effusiveness.

BW:

Well… What it does, it’s—everyone says oh, you break all the norms. Right? I’ve always thought you were elected to break the norms, weren’t you?

TRUMP:

Maybe. I was—

BW:

Not maybe.

TRUMP:

—elected, I think for a lot of reasons.

BW:

Okay. [laughs]

TRUMP:

I was elected for a lot of reasons.

BW:

But one of them was to break the norms. And what you did is you broke the norms in this relationship.

TRUMP:

Yeah.

BW:

Which is the one that drives the intel community and the military crazy. Right?

TRUMP:

Okay, so let me tell you where we are now.

BW:

Yes. Where are we now?

TRUMP:

Because this isn’t as good a story. So I shook his hand. I said, you’re just not ready. We’ll talk when you’re ready. And in a very friendly way, I left. Now, I didn’t realize it, but I heard he was furious at his people, not at me. For allowing this meeting to take place where I left. But I left on good terms. I’ve spoken to him indirectly and through this since. But now we’re in a state of never-never land.

BW:

You said it.

TRUMP:

Huh?

BW:

We really are.

TRUMP:

No, no. We’re in a state now where he wants to meet. You know, in a certain way he’s demanding a meeting.

BW:

I can see from the letters. He’s begging. I’m sorry, he’s begging.

TRUMP:

And communication is unbelievably difficult because there are no telephones. All right? He reads all of my social media. You see the statements I put out. You saw the one I put out a week ago, right? A few days ago.

BW:

Yes.

TRUMP:

That was meant for a party of one. Okay?

BW:

To him?

TRUMP:

Yeah. He sees all of that. That’s the primary way of communication [laughs] which is a little—because I’ve got so many, hundreds of millions of people. But, but—

BW:

And this is the one, December 8, “Kim Jong Un is too smart and has too far much to lose, everything actually, if he acts in a hostile way.”

TRUMP:

Yeah. That was only meant for him. I call it a party of one. Even though tens of millions of people are seeing it. Right?

BW:

Understand.

TRUMP:

I have a tremendous Twitter following. You know I actually have—hey, ask Dan to come in please? Dan?

COMMENTARY: Dan Scavino, Trump’s Deputy Chief of Staff for Communications and Director of Social Media, enters.

BW:

Okay, so where is it now? What’s the next step?

TRUMP:

Wait a minute, I just—hey Dan, you know the great Bob Woodward. This is Dan Scavino.

SCAVINO:

Yes, I do. How are you, sir?

BW:

How are you, sir?

SCAVINO:

Nice to meet you.

BW:

Nice to see you.

TRUMP:

So on my Twitter site, plus the other sites, plus Facebook, Instagram, what do I have?

SCAVINO:

A hundred seventy-six million total right now. Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. You have @realDonaldTrump, @teamtrump—

TRUMP:

Well that way I can fight the fake news. It’s the most—I had dinner with Zuckerberg the other night at the White House, okay?

BW:

Yeah.

COMMENTARY: Mark Zuckerberg is the CEO of Facebook and its parent company Meta platforms.

TRUMP:

And he sits down. I said, you’re not treating this world fairly. Anyway, he sits down and he goes, congratulations Mr. President. I said, what? He said, you’re by far number one on Facebook. I said, that’s good. I said, who’s second? He said Modi of India. I said, yeah, but he’s got 1.5 billion people. [laughter]

BW:

Yeah.

TRUMP:

But he said that. You heard that?

SCAVINO:

I was right there.

TRUMP:

He said you’re number one. It’s in the list, but you’re number one. Said number one on Facebook.

SCAVINO:

Since 2015.

TRUMP:

By far.

COMMENTARY: In early 2020, with 80 million followers, Trump had the ninth-most followed Twitter account behind former president Barack Obama and several celebrities. His Facebook page also ranked below dozens of other celebrities in terms of likes and followers.

TRUMP:

So it allows me to fight these fakers, these terrible human beings that are in the media that people think are legitimate but they’re not. And you and I might disagree.

BW:

I know that—I know this world, obviously, and I think there’s a lot more good faith than you understand.

TRUMP:

I think it’s a much worse world than you remember from back in the day. I do think—

BW:

Okay, but I think there’s a lot of good faith.

TRUMP:

I think there is some very evil—I know, but there’s some very evil people.

BW:

This is why transparency works. I want the story of how—what the system is. How do you do this? How do you do Putin? How do you do Iran?

TRUMP:

I’ve done more—and I have a great relationship with Putin. I could have—we could do such great things with Russia, but because of the phony Russia investigation—started falsely and corruptly and illegally now as it turns out—but because of that, you know, we’re held back. And he knows that, too. Putin said to me in a meeting, he said, it’s a shame, because I know it’s very hard for you to make a deal with us. I said, you’re right.

BW:

Yeah. This has been—

COMMENTARY: Special Prosecutor Robert Mueller, the former FBI Director, investigated allegations of collusion between Trump, his campaign, and Russia. Mueller’s final report amounted to an investigative crack-up riddled with ambiguities and contradictions.

Mueller wrote in his final report: “While this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.”

The headline in The Washington Post the next morning read: “Mueller Finds No Conspiracy.”

Mueller never recommended any criminal charges against Trump, though he cited ten instances of Trump obstructing the investigation.

BW:

This is important—

TRUMP:

Go ahead.

BW:

—particularly this week. The Horowitz inspector general investigation—

TRUMP:

Right. Right.

BW:

—of what the FBI did in Russia has started a massive shift in public opinion.

TRUMP:

I know.

BW:

You realize that?

COMMENTARY: The so-called Steele Dossier was a controversial document assembled by former British intelligence agent Christopher Steele that alleged Trump cavorted with prostitutes in Moscow years earlier. I had publicly said it was a garbage document because it was paid for by Democrats, its sourcing was weak, and its sweeping allegations were unsubstantiated. A trusted source of mine had also told me the document was basically a fraud.

Despite its unreliability, the FBI used the document as a basis for wiretapping Carter Page, a minor foreign policy aide to Trump during the 2016 campaign.

Michael Horowitz, the Inspector General of the Justice Department, found the FBI had insufficient basis for the wiretapping, and the Steele Dossier was eventually discredited.

Trump had latched on to the FBI wiretaps on Carter Page, a minor FBI mistake, and was building a case in his own mind and to me that this amounted to a conspiracy of spying.

TRUMP:

Horowitz in all fairness was appointed by Obama. If he weren’t, it could’ve been much worse. And, you know, he—look, when you see the Lisa Page—the two great lovers, right—and Strzok. When you hear those emails between—

BW:

Yeah. I know.

TRUMP:

—the two stupid lovers—they’re dumb as—you know what happened? They were having an affair, so they didn’t want to put it on their private servers. So they put it on the public FBI server. So the first thing we do is subpoena the server, and we’ve got all these texts. But when you see that and then Horowitz says there was no bias? Okay. But he got—you know, there was plenty in there. Right? Plenty in there.

COMMENTARY: Trump refers to FBI lawyer Lisa Page and FBI Special Agent Peter Strzok who had exchanged emails that revealed a stunning anti-Trump bias.

BW:

Sir, for 47 years I’ve done this. I’ve looked at the FBI. And I think it’s the first time since J. Edgar Hoover and Watergate when there is a chance for real FBI reform. Do you—you see that?

TRUMP:

So Comey, I call Comey a poor man’s J. Edgar Hoover.

BW:

Yeah. Yeah.

COMMENTARY: Director of the FBI James Comey was appointed by Obama in 2013. Trump fired Comey on May 9, 2017.

TRUMP:

He wanted to be J. Edgar Hoover, but he wasn’t smart enough. And he got caught.

BW:

Remember when they gave you that briefing, and I said publicly the Steele Dossier’s a garbage document?

TRUMP:

I remember. I remember.

BW:

And you tweeted a thing, thank you, and everyone piled on me. How can you say that? This is a holy document.

SCAVINO:

It’s a disgrace what went on.

COMMENTARY: Dan Scavino then weighed in.

SCAVINO:

Five hundred and fifty days I spent on the campaign trail with him, never once heard the word—ever—Russia.

BW:

But sir, it’s about the FBI’s procedures and this hair trigger to start counterintelligence investigations and other investigations.

TRUMP:

Well, I’ll go a step further. You know the way stupid people say, oh, if you didn’t fire Comey, this wouldn’t have happened? Just the opposite. If I didn’t fire Comey, I probably wouldn’t be here right now talking to you. Maybe I’d be talking to you from a different location, like New York. If I didn’t fire Comey—I was being set up, you know? That was a whole set up.

BW:

I don’t know whether it’s—look—you know—

TRUMP:

What happened is, when I fired him, that was like throwing a rock into a hornet’s nest. They all went crazy. They all started ratting each other out. Everybody—you’ll see. This is nothing. What you saw there is nothing.

BW:

You know they start counterintelligence investigations [snaps fingers]. Because, oh, we’ve got an anonymous phone call.

TRUMP:

Yeah.

BW:

And are you familiar with counterintelligence investigations?

TRUMP:

A little bit.

BW:

Do they brief you on them?

TRUMP:

No. No.

BW:

Do you know all the—

TRUMP:

Yeah, I get a lot of briefings, but—

BW:

But do you get—

TRUMP:

But you know what they should’ve done? When they first heard, they should’ve come to me and said, sir, this is what we’re hearing. They didn’t do it. They went to Dianne Feinstein when she had a Chinese guy that they thought might be a spy. They went to other people. They never came to me. Because they were looking to do a number on me. And if I didn’t fire that—

BW:

You’ve made your case.

TRUMP:

—if I didn’t fire that scumbag, it would’ve been—it was a great move I made. And now people are saying it. The smart people, they’re saying if you didn’t fire him—oh, they were just starting.

BW:

But the FBI—but the opportunity—

TRUMP:

And we wouldn’t have known—wait—we wouldn’t have known about Strzok and Page and McCabe and all these creeps.

BW:

If it wasn’t for Horowitz. Horowitz is the guy who uncovered all that.

TRUMP:

No, if it weren’t for my firing Comey, because that started—the whole thing blew up. That’s when it blew up. Otherwise it would’ve gone along, along, along. Don’t forget, this started before I fired Comey. Because they went after Flynn. They went after Page. They went after all these people. I will consider this one of my greatest achievements: getting the scum out of government. And it’s scum. It’s the lowest form of human garbage, these people. And I don’t mean FBI people. I mean top people in the FBI. Because this thing was run amok. And don’t think that Obama didn’t know—

BW:

And Barr agrees with you. Your attorney general.

TRUMP:

Barr. Don’t think that Obama didn’t know everything that was going on. He knew everything that was going on.

BW:

—the awesome power to investigate someone—

TRUMP:

Right.

BW:

You’re an FBI person, I can investigate you. And take you to the cleaners. And they do it. And they’re crime-fighters. And what’s interesting about somebody like Barr—

TRUMP:

He’s a great attorney general.

BW:

Well, we’re going to see. We’re going to see.

TRUMP:

But he’s doing a—people think he’s doing a very, you know, great job in many ways.

BW:

Well, he has lots of critics, as you know.

TRUMP:

He’s got critics and he’s got fans, too. He’s got tremendous fans. He’s a strong guy, and we’re going to see. Smart guy. We’re going to see what happens. But I’ll tell you what, had I not fired Comey, it would’ve been not good. And by the way, I fired him—

BW:

I know.

TRUMP:

How about my instinct? Do I get credit for instinct?

BW:

It was an earthquake.

COMMENTARY: Our time was running out. I wanted to move to foreign policy.

BW:

In Bob Gates, his memoir, 2014, he said of Obama and the Afghan war, “Obama doesn’t believe in his own strategy. Doesn’t consider the war to be his. For him, it’s all about getting out.”

TRUMP:

Yeah.

BW:

Is it the same for you?

TRUMP:

So it’s a situation that we should be there in an intelligence form, but not in a military form. We made tremendous progress, because we’ve gotten rid of ISIS. You know I got rid of ISIS in Syria and Iraq. But now you have ISIS there.

BW:

But they convinced you, you had to keep some troops there?

TRUMP:

Well, that hasn’t been proven yet. We’ll see.

BW:

But you’re willing to keep some troops there?

TRUMP:

We’ll be down very shortly to 8,000 troops.

BW:

Yeah. Okay. In Afghanistan? Yeah.

TRUMP:

And from then I’m going to have to make a decision. I think it’s good to have intelligence there, because it does seem to be a web of development. It’s a development web for terrorism.

BW:

And as you know, I mean, they’ll tell you, if you pull out of Afghanistan and there’s a 9/11-like attack—

TRUMP:

So the first thing the generals tell you when you want to pull out, they say, Sir, I’d rather fight them over there than fight them over here. And if you’re sitting behind this beautiful desk, the Resolute desk, and you have four guys that look like they’re right out of Hollywood saying, yes, sir—they’ll do whatever you say. I say, what’s your opinion, General? Sir, I’d rather fight them over there than fight them over here.

BW:

Which general said that?

TRUMP:

Well, different generals. Different generals.

BW:

Dunford? Mattis?

TRUMP:

I’ve had four generals say almost the exact same words, including—

BW:

Tell me, for history.

TRUMP:

—including, frankly—I like my new head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff very much—

BW:

Milley?

TRUMP:

Yes. And Mark is a very strong guy. But I believe that he feels that, too. I believe Esper, who’s doing a very good job, feels that, too. And that’s a hard line if you’re sitting here and you have to make that decision, when you have guys that you respect making that statement. I’ve had numerous of them say that.

COMMENTARY: Mark Esper, Trump’s latest secretary of defense, replaced Jim Mattis. Esper kept a low profile but was one of the most experienced defense secretaries in modern times. Shortly after the 2020 election, Trump angrily fired Esper.

BW:

Do you think there’s too much concentration of power in the presidency now?

TRUMP:

No.

BW:

I’m astounded, going back—I’ve done nine presidents, sir.

TRUMP:

Right.

BW:

And power grows, from Nixon to you. And I wonder is there too much power concentrated?

TRUMP:

No. I think you have a lot of checks and balances. I think that you have to be smart. Look, you have to be smart. Not easy to be president, you know? I went through 15 debates. I won every one of them. I went through everything and—you ever see the debate, the polls on debates? I won every single debate. You’ve got to know what you’re doing. You have to have a position where somebody can make a decision, Bob. Otherwise you’re just going to be a rudderless ship.

BW:

Yeah.

TRUMP:

Oh, I see—so you think that the presidency is more powerful now than it ever was?

BW:

Oh, yes, sir. Particularly—

TRUMP:

Is that because of the person?

BW:

Because I think this is true—both the left and the right, Democrats, Republicans—

TRUMP:

They fight each other?

BW:

—they have a reverence for the exercise of presidential power, particularly if it solves big problems. And that reverence leads them to, oh, okay, the president has decided—we’re going to—Now, people fight you on things, but—

TRUMP:

Well, you’ve seen Mitch say he’s not going to take up a bill unless he has the approval of the president. Did you see that? This is Mitch, and Mitch is a pro. We’re not dealing with a baby, right? But Mitch has said oftentimes—and I’ve seen other senators say—you know, they’re against something. They’ll say, I’m only going to approve it if the president says to approve it. So I don’t know—is that respect for me or is that respect for the office?

BW:

What’s your answer?

TRUMP:

I don’t know. I have no answer. But I know it happens.

BW:

When you come in here, you realize you have extraordinary power?

TRUMP:

Do you mean because of the office or because of me?

BW:

Both. They’ve converged, haven’t they?

TRUMP:

I don’t know. I think the wrong person wouldn’t have much power as president, and I think the right person possibly would. Meaning a certain type of person possibly would. But I understand what you’re saying.

BW:

What do you feel when some of the generals tell you about Iran? That well it’s really a pissant problem and it’s not something that we have to worry about?

TRUMP:

I don’t view Iran as a problem like I do others. Look, I think—we can have a very good relationship with China, but then on the other hand I look at them building an airplane a day and a ship a week and I say, this is a behemoth. What I’m doing with tariffs has crippled them. Crippled them. It’s not the same country. What I did to Iran, I mean, Iran is not the same. Once I terminated that deal and I put the strongest sanctions in the history of the country on—they have no money. They want to borrow money. Now Obama made a horrible deal. Don’t forget, that deal ends in four years. If that deal—what kind of a deal is that?

BW:

That’s another thing I want to walk through with your people. Who’s your—again, in the second chair—

TRUMP:

You can speak to Robert O’Brien, very good guy.

COMMENTARY: Robert O’Brien, a lawyer, author, and former international hostage negotiator, was Trump’s fourth national security adviser.

BW:

Yes, okay, your new national security adviser.

TRUMP:

He’s a very good guy. You know why I like him?

BW:

I’m going to quote you to him.

TRUMP:

He was a great hostage negotiator—38 and 0.

BW:

Yes, he did that, didn’t he.

TRUMP:

I mean, I’m 38 and 0 with him. We got every hostage. Zero, we never paid a cent. But anyway, no, Robert’s good. Robert’s somebody I think you could speak to.

BW:

Okay. I’m going to quote you to him.

TRUMP:

I think you could speak to Mike Pompeo. Doing a good job.

BW:

Yes. I want the full story.

TRUMP:

Yeah. No, Mike is good. But—

BW:

You know what the historians talk about? History’s clock. Have you ever heard this term?

TRUMP:

No. No.

BW:

And Barbara Tuchman, back doing the book on World War I and the causes and how it was an accident, wrote that “The old order was dying. On history’s clock, there was a new order coming in.” You ought to put up history’s clock here, because history—and I say this all the time—history’s clock was kind of ticking along in 2016. No one knew where it was going. The old order—

TRUMP:

Yeah.

BW:

—the Democrats and the Republicans did not come up with a plan or a strategy. And you knew who came along and stole history’s clock? Donald Trump.

TRUMP:

I guess—yeah. I, you’re looking at him.

BW:

Donald Trump.

TRUMP:

Well—

BW:

And I say that, and people don’t like that. I say, look guys, that’s what happened.

COMMENTARY: I wanted to know Trump’s view on nuclear weapons.

BW:

Doesn’t it give you the chills when they come in and say, here are the options, Mr. President?

TRUMP:

Yeah. Yeah. You only hope you don’t have to use them. You’re talking about people.

BW:

Yeah. God help us.

TRUMP:

You only hope you don’t have to use them.

BW:

After you’d been in office a year, NSC meeting, and you’re complaining about the allies and all the money we’re spending.

TRUMP:

Right.

BW:

And Mattis, according to the notes, is quite upset about this. And you’re saying, why are we doing this? Right?

TRUMP:

Yeah. On numerous occasions about different places.

BW:

Yes. Always. It’s a constant refrain. And he finally says, Mr. President, we’re doing this in order to prevent World War III.

TRUMP:

Mm-hmm.

BW:

What’d you think about that?

TRUMP:

I don’t remember him ever saying that. He may have thought it, and he may have thought it was good—

BW:

I think he said it.

TRUMP:

But the problem—

BW:

At least it’s in notes.

TRUMP:

Yeah. I don’t think it helps in preventing World War III, but when you have wealthy countries that laugh at us behind our back because we’re paying for their military, I think it’s ridiculous. They respect us more now than they’ve ever respected us. These same countries—look, I raised $530 billion over the weekend. You know that? NATO.

BW:

Yes. Right. [laughs]

TRUMP:

A hundred and thirty now. And $400 over the next two years. $400 billion. Not—

BW:

Do you think money makes that much difference in politics now?

TRUMP:

Yeah. Which way? You mean running for office?

BW:

Yeah, and getting all this free media. It’s not as if—

TRUMP:

So, so they said 97 percent of the stories on the news now are Trump or Trump-related. Ninety-seven percent. If a plane goes down someplace with 500 people on board, they don’t even cover it anymore. It’s all got to be Trump or Trump-related. Look, Hillary Clinton spent four times what I spent. And we beat her, okay? So who’s going to get the nomination? A tough one. Toughest one you’ve ever—

BW:

Isn’t it interesting?

TRUMP:

It’s a tough one. Nobody knows. I mean, when I see Buttigieg [pronounces it Bood-edge-edge] he looks, I say, Alfred E. Neuman, right? But when I see him—somebody said they think he’s going to make it. You know, you sort of dream about that. Like, nothing. He’s like nothing.

BW:

Okay. Now here’s, last question, big—

TRUMP:

Be very interesting. When you have an idea, let me know?

BW:

—the big, big important thought. I’m looking at how you operate, and I say one of the keys is that—

TRUMP:

Oh, this just came out, look.

BW:

What’s this? Latest poll?

TRUMP:

Just came out.

BW:

Plus nine in Wisconsin, huh.

TRUMP:

Look at these, how nice. Look at that. That was over the last week. This just came out yesterday or today.

BW:

Yeah. But these polls mean nothing. You know that. Because that’s not—

TRUMP:

No, but you know what they are? I know, but they’re swing states.

BW:

What matters? November.

TRUMP:

No, no, I know that. But still.

BW:

Yeah. It’s interesting.

TRUMP:

I went up how many points? Look how much. They were—

BW:

The biggest thought is, how’s President Trump doing his foreign policy?

COMMENTARY: At that time this is what I believed the focus of my book would be.

TRUMP:

The single biggest mistake we made in the history of our country was going into the Middle East. We’ve spent $8 trillion—

BW:

Yeah. That’s Steve Bannon’s number. That’s inflated.

TRUMP:

I believe it.

BW:

Yeah.

TRUMP:

I believe it. I don’t think they report the real numbers, okay, you want to know the truth. But we spent $8 trillion. It was seven when I first—it’s $8 trillion. Millions of people have been killed. Now, on our side, less. But overall millions of people. We’ve changed the face of Europe. [laughs]

BW:

Through immigration.

TRUMP:

Those people left the Middle East and they walked into Germany. And Angela was very nice, and she made the biggest mistake in the history of Germany when she took millions of people.

BW:

The Iraq war in many ways defines where we are now.

TRUMP:

Well, it wasn’t the Iraq war. Don’t forget, the Iraq war, which was a big mistake—it was a big mistake because in Iraq, they killed terrorists. Okay? Saddam Hussein killed terrorists. He had control. All of a sudden we’re spending massive amounts of money, and it’s totally—you know, just a mess. And I also think, why are we defending extraordinarily wealthy, successful nations for nothing?

BW:

So is the Rosetta Stone in this for you, instinct? Because that’s what you said last—

TRUMP:

Maybe—well, well, instinct is a very important ingredient in something, you know? I watched Bill Belichick kick a field goal when the team was dead, and they were like on the seven yard line, fourth down. And the score was I think 28 to three. And the first half was just about over. And Bill, I like him because he endorsed me strongly, okay?

BW:

Yes, I noticed.

TRUMP:

But Bill Belichick kicked a field goal instead of going for—when you’re 28 to three, 27, 28 to three with 10 seconds left, you’ve got to give it a shot. Most people would say, he kicked a field goal instead of trying to get a touchdown. You’d think he’d need a touchdown, right? He gets the field goal. So now he’s six. So it’s 28 to six. And I say, what kind of a call was that? And then they tie the game, and they win the game, right? That was two years ago, three years ago, against Atlanta. Okay? And I say, that was instinct. That was great instinct. Because—

BW:

Did you tell him that?

TRUMP:

Well, I tell him—he’s a friend of mine. Look, he’s a great guy. He endorsed me. You know I have often said, if you go to war, you take a great guy like a Belichick or you know, people that win. Because strategically, it’s not as different as you think. Do you understand?

BW:

I understand.

TRUMP:

And you get the generals, and you explain it to these guys that have to win on Sunday, otherwise they’re out of business, right? And some have done it for years. And some haven’t lasted for three weeks. Right? But, no, I think a lot of things are based on instinct. I’m here because of instinct. Because if you go with the things I said, everybody said I was wrong. When I said what do you have to lose to the African American audience as I read worst on crime, worst on housing ownership, worst on education, worst on this, worst on that—

BW:

Maybe the title of my book should be, what do we have to lose?

TRUMP:

—then I said, vote for me. What do we have to lose? Maybe. [laughs] Yeah, what do we have to lose? Don’t use that. Don’t use it. [laughter] I don’t like it.

BW:

Okay. You’re great to give me this time.

TRUMP:

No, but that is instinct. You know my people said, oh, that’s a terrible thing. No, but it was great.

BW:

History’s clock.

TRUMP:

Yeah. No, that’s very interesting.

BW:

History’s clock.

TRUMP:

Where did you hear that? Where is that—

BW:

It’s in Barbara Tuchman’s book. It’s a great book about World War I. Begins in 1910. Edward the Seventh has died. And there are nine kings coming to the funeral. And she writes, and Big Ben struck 9:00. And she said, but on history’s clock, the old order was dying in a blinding flash. And it did.

TRUMP:

Can I be honest? It’s true. And you know who some of—

BW:

It’s true. And the question is, is that what happened in 2016?

TRUMP:

Well, you know who some of the worst people are for me to deal with? If you said I just put in, I’ll have 182 judges and appellate judges and two Supreme Court judges in less than three years, right, and if you put somebody else’s name as president—anybody else—all of these lowlifes that are Republicans, the few remaining Never Trumpers. There aren’t too many. They’re on artificial resuscitation. Or they’re just—they can’t get over their sickness of some kind, you know? I don’t like to use the word jealous, because why should I say jealous? But if you said Bill Smith was the president and did all of the things I’ve done, they’d say he’s the greatest president that we’ve ever had. But they can’t say that because the hatred is so great. And I find that the Never Trumpers, in many cases, are worse than the Obama people and they’re worse than the—And just to finish, and then we’ll go on—

BW:

And I asked you last time, you didn’t want to answer—why do so many people hate you? Why are they so angry?

TRUMP:

Well, the love is equal to the hate, though.

BW:

Okay. Fair point. Fair point.

TRUMP:

I have the love that’s equaled—you know, the famous Fifth Avenue statement. Boom. Right?

BW:

[laughs] Where’d that come from? Was that instinct?

TRUMP:

Just—it was pure instinct. And it was well received, but not so well—But now they write it’s true.

COMMENTARY: At a 2016 campaign rally in Iowa, Trump said:

TRUMP:

I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose any voters. Okay? It’s like incredible.

BW:

You know we have two Americas out there. You realize that? You are president of two Americas.

TRUMP:

Yeah, that’s true.

BW:

They are divided.

TRUMP:

That’s true.

BW:

Is it, in the end, not your job to try to bring them together?

TRUMP:

I would like to be able to do it. I would like to be able to do it.

BW:

Isn’t it your job now? Job one—

TRUMP:

I think the biggest problem I have—

BW:

—bring them back together.

TRUMP:

I think the biggest problem I have for doing that—I would love to do that. Because I’ve oftentimes said that—you remember when I put out the Christmas greeting where I said, Merry Christmas to all, even the haters? You know. But I would love to be able to do it. But the biggest problem is the media. The media is unbelievably dishonest. And it’s hard when you have a dishonest media. Because if that report didn’t open up people’s eyes, then nothing will. You understand that. The report from the incident.

BW:

Listen, that’s a great moment. But it’s not going to get you elected next year. But it’s a great moment to reform the FBI. It’s a public service, to come in and say, we’ve got to fix this.

TRUMP:

It’s a systemic problem, but it starts from the top. And it started with Mueller. And it started with Comey. And it’s with that whole group. Mueller was—by the way, how about Mueller’s performance in front of Congress? That went poof. [laughs] For two and a half years, right? And then—

BW:

You know what they always said about Mueller is if he finds that you did something quite trivial, he will indict you. If he finds something really serious, he can’t get there unless he’s got the goods. Unless he has tape recordings, unless he has—

TRUMP:

Let me tell you. There isn’t a man of substance in this country, maybe in the world, that if you gave them 18 haters—haters, that are very smart, haters—and gave them an unlimited budget—turned out to be $45 million—Cost much more than that because what it did to the country cost billions, okay? Billions. But if you gave them $45 million, you’ve got 18 brilliant haters—many of whom worked for the opposition, Crooked Hillary Clinton. There are few people in the world—They went through everything, including my tax returns, my financial statements—

BW:

Which I’m still waiting to get. I really would like to have them.

TRUMP:

No, but you know Mueller went through them. You know Mueller has seen them, okay?

BW:

You’re sure of that?

TRUMP:

Sure, 100 percent. He spent $45 million investigating me, and he had the right to go—

BW:

Maybe, maybe not.

TRUMP:

He went through everything.

BW:

It’s not clear.

TRUMP:

He went through everything.

BW:

It’s not clear.

TRUMP:

If you gave me you. You’re an honest guy. If you had 18 geniuses watching you—every single move you’ve made, every paper, every check you’ve signed for the last 30 years, I guarantee you I’d find—they found nothing with me.

BW:

But you know what they said of Mueller was if he discovers you’ve ripped a mattress tag off, he’ll prosecute. You remember on the mattress tag it would say, if you rip this off, you’ll be prosecuted.

TRUMP:

Right. Right.

BW:

And they said if he caught you doing that, he would indict you. But the big cases—

TRUMP:

Bob, he found nothing. Think of it.

BW:

Well, you’ve said publicly, sir, you’ve made it very—you’ve said the Mueller report was the best thing that ever happened to you.

TRUMP:

No, but think of it. With all the thousands of checks I signed—I sent—when I went—Poom, poom, poom. Thousands of checks. Thousands of—hundreds of deals, all—He found nothing. There’s nobody in the country where that could’ve happened. He spent $45 million. Had 18 guys. Had 49 FBI agents. I had 2,700 subpoenas, I believe—

BW:

And you’re sure he looked at your tax returns?

TRUMP:

Looked at everything.

BW:

I mean they’ve told you that?

TRUMP:

Well, I don’t want to get into it, but he looked at everything. There’s not a man in the country that could’ve survived that, and he found nothing. He found nothing. Think of it. I’d get calls—Bob, I get calls from—

BW:

So do you still think it’s the best thing that happened to you?

TRUMP:

No, I don’t. I think it’s a terrible thing. It should never happen to another president.

BW:

Well, that’s where reform of the FBI is the future, isn’t it?

TRUMP:

It should never happen to another president.

COMMENTARY: For me, reform was an obvious conclusion because of what the Justice Department Inspector General had found in the Horowitz report about the willingness of the FBI to use a flawed document like the Steele Dossier as the basis for a wiretap. What I’m arguing here is that the FBI institute more accountability over their procedures when they seek court authorized wiretaps. They have since done so to protect the rights of all citizens.

TRUMP:

Nobody else would be able to take it. Your friend Rush, I told you what he said, right? Rush Limbaugh. He said, there’s not a man in the world that could’ve taken what Trump has taken and been a great president.

COMMENTARY: Rush was not my friend. I’d never met him, and he’d said many, many critical things about me and my work.

TRUMP:

It’s true. I know other guys—

BW:

So what’s the plan for bringing the two—

TRUMP:

Look, you know Nixon. Nixon was under a table.

BW:

Yeah. Yeah.

TRUMP:

Nixon was a mess. I’m not a mess.

BW:

He had a tape-recording system.

TRUMP:

You know what you said to me the last time? I told my wife. I told a few people. I shouldn’t say that, but I told a few people. You said, you act like you just won the election. You’re under impeachment. You said that to me. I thought it was a cool line.

BW:

Yeah.

TRUMP:

But things work out. Things always work out. You have to be smart, but things work out. I have a great attitude. Anyway.

BW:

So Karl Rove, who used to work for Bush, I remember seeing him up here in the West Wing when we were talking about the Iraq war—

TRUMP:

Yeah. He’s come a long way for me, by the way. He used to be really negative. He’s very positive.

BW:

You know what he said? He said, it all depends on outcomes. And it does. This depends on outcomes. China. Russia. The Middle East. And that’s what I want to chart—

TRUMP:

Well, you’re right, but if nothing else, spending no money, giving nothing here. Three years of peace. Three years of no nuclear tests. We haven’t had a nuclear test in three years.

COMMENTARY: Trump is referring to North Korea.

TRUMP:

Three years of no rockets, other than—

BW:

And he says he doesn’t need to test because he’s got all he needs. [laughs]

TRUMP:

Fine. Look, they haven’t had a test in three years. And we do have a signed document saying that he’s—you know, you have to—that document from Singapore, you have to take that document and study it. It said that he will denuclearize.

BW:

You’ve been kind. I’ll come back. I’m going to—

—let me introduce myself.

DEERE:

Bob, I’m Judd Deere.

BW:

Hi. How are you? Nice to meet you. I’m going to go through—

TRUMP:

He’s a legend.

DEERE:

I know that.

TRUMP:

We’re both legends.

BW:

—Iran—

TRUMP:

What people don’t know is he came up to my office in Trump Tower. He wanted to do a book on me 30 years ago. And here we are.

BW:

No, Bernstein did. I said—

TRUMP:

Oh, Bernstein. Boy has he gone off the way. By the way, there’s some nice pictures of you there, by the way.

BW:

That’s great. I hope—I need to work on my posture.

COMMENTARY: Trump presented me with a large, poster-size picture of himself with Kim Jong Un.

TRUMP:

Don’t fold it.

BW:

I’m not going to.

TRUMP:

Do you have a round thing for this so he can take it? Or even a rubber band or something. Because you can’t fold it, you’ll ruin it.

BW:

I’m not going to.

TRUMP:

That’s a pretty top picture.

BW:

I love that picture.

TRUMP:

I don’t even know why I’m giving it to you. That’s my only one. That’s all right.

BW:

Well look, he’s smiling. That’s your point.

TRUMP:

By the way, you ever see a picture of him smiling? He never smiled before. I’m the only one he smiles with. You know that means something.

BW:

Those letters—now, you’ve got to let me read your letters to him. So I have—

TRUMP:

I’ll let you do it.

BW:

I’ve got half the puzzle. Right?

TRUMP:

Okay. I’ll let you do that.

President Trump meets with North Korean Leader Kim Jong Un. Both leaders are smiling. Trump gave Woodward a large, poster-size copy of this photo. It was most likely taken during Trump’s meeting with Kim Jong Un in Hanoi, Vietnam, on February 27, 2019.

BW:

Okay. Good. That’s great. That’s key. Great. You got something to put that on?

[Recording ends]

COMMENTARY: Trump’s relations with the North Korean leader and his transactional dealings with other countries were a frightening case study of how Trump conducted foreign relations. He wanted to do it alone. Based on personal instinct and natural ability. And with a stunning disregard for his CIA experts and military generals.

Staunch allies, crucial to maintaining stability and the U.S. place in the world, were treated like unwanted, disposable burdens. Trump personally demanded that South Korea pay billions for continued U.S. military protection. He said:

TRUMP:

So we’re defending you, we’re allowing you to exist. Why are we doing that? Why do we care?

This is about as demeaning a statement that any president could make about another country, let alone a longstanding and important ally. Autocrats, however, who lavished Trump with praise and played to his ego were respected, even admired. Trump remembers that Putin said he was brilliant. He remembers that Putin and Xi told him Kim Jong Un only wanted to talk to him.

TRUMP:

I’m the only one he wants to deal with in the world.

Trump says that only he understands North Korea’s five major nuclear facilities, not because he studied them in-depth but because his uncle worked at MIT. Trump told me,

TRUMP:

So I understand that stuff. You know, genetically.

Trump’s foreign policy is dangerously and unpredictably dictated by his own self-adulation and instinct. Nobody is tougher than him, nothing scares him, and nobody knows more than him. Only me. Nobody else. This is what terrified his national security advisers.