INTERVIEW 4: It Ended in Dust
Mar-a-Lago, Palm Beach, Florida
December 30, 2019
TRUMP:
Getting along with Russia is a good thing, not a bad thing, all right? Especially because they have 1,332 nuclear fucking warheads.
COMMENTARY: On Monday, December 30th, 2019, I was sitting in the reception area of Trump’s Mar-a-Lago home in Palm Beach, Florida. The club area, originally built as a private home in 1927, was opulent and luxurious in an Old World way, like a gilded, candle-lit version of the Wizard of Oz’s castle. A 16-inch plaque stood prominently on the receptionist’s table. It read: “Donald J. Trump. The Mar-a-Lago Club. The only six-star private club in the world.”
This would be my third interview with Trump this month. A highly unusual opportunity with a sitting president.
I wanted to review with President Trump Mueller’s Russia investigation and Trump’s impeachment by the Democratic House of Representatives twelve days earlier on December 18th.
The daily story was still impeachment.
I watched Mar-a-Lago club members stream in for dinner at what a Secret Service agent told me was “the regular evening soiree.”
Trump appeared in suit and tie with billionaire Nelson Peltz in tow. “Oh,” Peltz said, “he’s doing great things for the economy. It’s all him.” Trump pointed to the gold leaf on the 20-foot-high ceiling. “Look at that,” he said to me. “See that? See that?”
Trump then escorted me back to a conference room. We sat next to each other at a large table.
Music blared in the background. In the audiobook, we have processed the interview to remove the music for copyright reasons. Deputy Press Secretary Hogan Gidley was also present.
TRUMP:
Well—
BW:
I’m going to turn this on. On the record for the book. Unless you modify—
TRUMP:
For the book only, right? Only for the book?
BW:
Book only, yeah. I’m not—
TRUMP:
Okay. For the book only. Right?
GIDLEY:
Right. No stories coming out, no nothing.
TRUMP:
I didn’t know Rosenstein, but I got to know him.
COMMENTARY: Rod Rosenstein was the deputy attorney general who oversaw the Russia investigation because the attorney general Jeff Sessions had recused himself. Trump was absolutely furious at Sessions’s decision to take himself out of the case.
TRUMP:
I couldn’t fire him because I didn’t want to be Richard Nixon, who fired everybody. And being a student of history—I like learning from the past. Much better than learning from yourself and mistakes. So one of the best things that I did, and I did a great job by doing it, drained the swamp, is firing Comey. Not keeping him.
BW:
Yes, we talked about this.
TRUMP:
Right. If I would not have fired him—I don’t know, maybe I would be—because this was a coup, this was spying, this was a lot of things. Okay. And that was before Mueller. When I hired Jeff Sessions, I did it because he was the first senator to support me. He came to see me four to five times. He wanted it so badly. I didn’t want to have him, but I’m a loyal person. He had a position in Alabama prior to being a senator that was, you know, a law enforcement position. And I agreed to do it. And when I hire a secretary or an attorney general, I hire somebody that’s supposed to go out and get great people to work for them. And for the most part I have had very good people. I’ve had a good Cabinet. You know I really have had a good Cabinet. And if I don’t, I change them. I don’t mind changing people at all. When I hired Jeff Sessions, he had six deputies that he could’ve hired. And he had Rosenstein. I didn’t know any of them. But I knew five of them were solid. I knew a couple of them, I should say, but I didn’t know who—I expect all of my people to hire good people.
BW:
But Rosenstein took control of this investigation. Under the rules, Mueller was just like another U.S. attorney. And so he could monitor and control him. So Rosenstein had the Russian inquiry, traditionally the deputy—
TRUMP:
Yeah. Which by the way, it now found out that they should have exonerated me in the first 24 hours. Because if you look at what happened with the report, the IG report, that just came out. They knew 24 hours after this whole thing started that Trump did nothing. It went on for two years, or whatever the period of time, but it went on for two years.
BW:
It did, it went on for two years. But Rosenstein’s got the handle on this.
TRUMP:
Yeah.
BW:
Controls the Russia investigation. The deputy has the FBI. Your relationship with Sessions was gone, so Rosenstein could step in. And at the end of the inquiry, he resigned this year and he sent you a love letter saying that you had great conversations, you showed humor, it was, look, everything we accomplished. He told people privately that—this is interesting—that Trump is bulletproofed for 2020 now.
TRUMP:
This is recently?
BW:
Did you know that?
TRUMP:
No. When did he say this?
BW:
He said this over the summer, after he resigned.
TRUMP:
Yeah. And what does that mean, though? You’re asking me about Rosenstein. In what sense? Are you asking me that he was an evil guy, or a strong guy?
BW:
Did you know that he had this kind of—no—Did you know he had—
TRUMP:
I mean are you saying that he was on my side?
BW:
—this control? Yeah, was he on your side? And he’d learned early from Mueller that they weren’t going to find anything.
TRUMP:
Yeah.
BW:
Did he tell you that? Or did he tell the White House counsel?
TRUMP:
So—so I obviously can’t reveal all my conversations.
BW:
But help me for the history, Mr. President.
TRUMP:
I got along with him—Yes. Let me just explain. I didn’t know—you know, I didn’t know him at all, never met him. Came from Baltimore, which is a Democrat area.
BW:
Right.
TRUMP:
Elijah Cummings stood up and said what a great choice he is to head—after Sessions left, on the first day, the first day, after he recused himself. I had a choice. I could’ve fired everybody, or I could grin and bear it. I decided to do the second, because I watched a person that you know better than I do fire everybody. How did that work out, right?
BW:
Not well for Nixon.
TRUMP:
And if you see where I am now—because that’s all done—if you see where I am now, that was a very smart thing to do. Because it all went into—
BW:
But did you know early, comparatively early on, that Rosenstein knew that Mueller had nothing—
TRUMP:
No.
BW:
—on Russian conspiracy?
TRUMP:
Nobody ever told me that, no.
BW:
I see. When did you find out, then?
TRUMP:
Well, I knew early on that he had nothing because I never dealt with a Russian. I knew early on that I never made a phone call, I never—you know, I have millions of calls. Right?
BW:
Yes, sir.
TRUMP:
There wasn’t one phone call to or from Russia. So I knew from the standpoint of I know, because I never dealt with a Russian.
BW:
It’s you. Right.
TRUMP:
Just a quick little—so I would hear, even before Mueller, little stories about Russia. Do you know anything about Russia? Like there was something percolating.
BW:
Yes. Right.
TRUMP:
You may know what I mean. And I kept saying, oh, no. And I never even thought of it because I never thought—you know, it was like, have you heard stories about Russia? And here’s the story. I’d say, no, no, no. After five or six or seven people asking me over a period of months [about it?], I said, what’s this stuff with Russia? I keep hearing—because I have nothing to do with Russia. Okay. With Rosenstein. So he took over early. Because Jeff Sessions recused himself. Jeff Sessions should’ve told me—
BW:
Yes. I know. I know.
TRUMP:
—he was going to recuse himself prior to—
BW:
You’ve made that clear.
TRUMP:
—going in. And it would’ve been a whole different thing. But he didn’t. He took the job, but then he recused himself the following day, and Rod Rosenstein was the deputy.
BW:
But here—President Trump—
TRUMP:
I learned—I knew they had nothing because there was nothing. But I didn’t know—
BW:
But as you know, they can find things, they can dig things up.
TRUMP:
Sure.
BW:
And this went on for two years.
TRUMP:
Two years, and they had nothing. Well, I’ll tell you—
BW:
And the question is, when did you feel relief? And did you get some information—
TRUMP:
I never felt relief.
BW:
Why?
TRUMP:
I never felt relief. Because that was the way it was being played. They were dirty cops.
BW:
So what Rosenstein said to Mueller was, let me know if you find anything that shows coordination or conspiracy. It never came.
TRUMP:
Yeah.
BW:
And he knew this earlier this year, before the report came out. He said he bulletproofed you for 2020, which is—
TRUMP:
Big statement.
BW:
—pretty important bulletproofing.
TRUMP:
That’s a big statement. Now, that’s a big statement.
BW:
Did you know that?
TRUMP:
I didn’t know that. No, I never heard that.
BW:
Have you talked to him since?
TRUMP:
I have not.
BW:
After the—
TRUMP:
I have not. But I left him in charge, as opposed to removing him. And I let them run it. And let me tell you something, I did something that some would do and some wouldn’t do. But I did something that was—I think it was probably wise in the end. I didn’t have to. I could’ve gone right in there and taken over. I let them do whatever they wanted to do. And because I didn’t want to have fingerprints, I didn’t want to have—I had an absolute right to get involved if I want to.
BW:
Oh, you could’ve fired—
TRUMP:
I could’ve fired—
BW:
Listen, within Mueller’s operation, all these lawyers, the people you didn’t like, it was kind of like a closed, balanced aquarium. And every time you tweeted or said something, they said, we’re finished. And they felt if they—
TRUMP:
What does that mean, we’re finished?
BW:
That you’ll fire them all. Fire the whole team. They—
TRUMP:
I think if I would’ve fired them, there would’ve been bedlam in the country.
BW:
I think you’re probably right.
TRUMP:
I think I would—oh—I think if I would’ve—
BW:
And you asked people to try to get rid of him.
TRUMP:
If I would’ve fired Mueller, if I would’ve fired the group of, as I call them, 13 angry Democrats—which turned out to be 18 angry Democrats. If I were to fire them, I think there would’ve been bedlam in this country. Even though I knew that I did absolutely—I had nothing to do with Russia.
BW:
And they thought, within Mueller’s team, that if they subpoenaed you, they’d be fired for sure. And so they wouldn’t do it.
TRUMP:
Yeah. They were wrong.
BW:
That’s one of the reasons—
TRUMP:
I would not have fired them.
BW:
You would not have fired them?
TRUMP:
No.
COMMENTARY: In fact, Trump did try to have Mueller fired. Former White House Counsel Don McGahn testified before Congress that in 2017, Trump asked him to tell Rod Rosenstein to remove Mueller. When McGahn refused, Trump backed down.
TRUMP:
I would’ve fought it out, but I wouldn’t have fired them.
BW:
So John Dowd, your early attorney—
TRUMP:
Good man.
BW:
—was right to tell you, don’t sit for an interview with Mueller. That it’s a perjury trap.
TRUMP:
So John Dowd is a good attorney. An old-timer, old-school.
BW:
Yes, very.
TRUMP:
John Dowd is a man who was so committed to this, and he was so upset because he thought within the first few weeks this case should’ve been ended. And he would tell me, oh, this case is ending very shortly. They have nothing. And at the end, it took—it was like a year and a half. It went on forever. He almost had a nervous breakdown. He was so committed. He thought it was the most unfair prosecution—when you talk about malicious prosecution. He said it was the most unfair thing he’s ever seen.
COMMENTARY: Dowd was the lawyer I quoted at the end of my book Fear, published the year before this interview. Almost certainly Trump had not read my book. Dowd said he had seen Trump’s tragic flaw. What Dowd concluded but would not say to the president’s face was: “You’re a fucking liar.”
BW:
Rosenstein was your friend, it turns out. When he took over the investigation—
TRUMP:
Who told you that?
BW:
—he thought—
TRUMP:
But who told you that?
BW:
President Trump, I’ve talked to everyone, and I’ve got—
TRUMP:
Okay. I’m glad to hear that. But—
BW:
He initially said, hey look, this investigation is about the Russians, not about Trump.
TRUMP:
Yeah.
BW:
And that was his focus. And it turned out—
TRUMP:
People have said that. But what happened is, I’m not sure that Comey—Comey was a bad person, is a bad person. You know, he tries to pretend like he’s a pious, wonderful—he’s a bad guy. And I’m not sure that Comey had that in mind at all. I think he had the opposite. I think he had a lot of bad thought in mind. I think he’s a sick man. I think Comey’s sick. There’s some mental problem that he’s got. And I think some of the people that worked for him are very sick.
TRUMP:
One thing.
BW:
I just want to make sure—
TRUMP:
The IG was good.
BW:
Yes.
TRUMP:
But he never quite gets there. Because he was an Obama appointment. Now, in one way—
BW:
No, it’s because he didn’t want to ascribe motives to the behavior. It was unacceptable.
TRUMP:
Okay, ready? When you have Page and Strzok saying we’re going to take him down, saying if she loses we have an insurance policy—To me, the greatest of all was that. That’s the most important email of any of them, and we have some beauties. See, they made a terrible mistake. They put their lovers’ notes on the public server, on the FBI server.
BW:
Yes, I know. When this was all over, did you talk to Rosenstein at all?
TRUMP:
I haven’t spoken to him. I want to stay away from everything until it’s all over. By the way, this is very different from me. I had a choice. I could’ve gone the exact opposite. I could’ve fired everybody. Could’ve done whatever I wanted. I guess they say that the president of the United States is the chief law enforcement officer. You understand?
BW:
Some people do, yes.
TRUMP:
Okay, chief law enforcement officer. I didn’t want to put the country into a position where—I just think if I did it the other way, it would’ve been 10 times worse than anything that’s happened thus far.
BW:
One of the interesting things about Nixon, after he resigned, he gave these interviews to David Frost.
TRUMP:
Right.
BW:
And one of the things he said, it’s quite eloquent, he said, I gave them a sword, to take me down.
TRUMP:
Yeah.
BW:
And a lot of people in my business, as you know, thought the Mueller investigation was the sword.
TRUMP:
Was going to end—yeah.
BW:
Was going to—
TRUMP:
And it ended in a whimper. It was pretty amazing. It ended—you know what I said? It ended in dust.
BW:
Amazing, and that’s why—
TRUMP:
It all ended in dust. Look, the big thing on the Mueller, the words—two simple words: no collusion. Because see, it’s all about collusion.
BW:
No coordination, no conspiracy.
TRUMP:
That was the key. Now, phase two, well, there was no collusion. And then all of a sudden we started getting all these great text messages and finding out all about the conspiracy and all the bad things that happened. So you realized it was an illegal investigation. It was a totally illegal investigation. And therefore—and then Bill Barr made a determination, so you had no obstruction, you had no collusion. But the big word was really no collusion. Because the big thing was, was he at all colluding with Russia? And the answer was no. They were two very big words. And then Bill Barr, he ruled on the no obstruction. There was no obstruction. There was no obstruction. But the collusion was the thing that people—a lot of people said, well, wait a minute, it’s an illegal thing, and you’re talking about obstruction.
BW:
So the bulletproofing, I’m telling you, this is the first you’ve heard of?
TRUMP:
Yeah, I have not heard that. I have not heard that. I felt it, because I knew I never had anything to do with Russia. Now Putin did call me yesterday. Do you know that?
BW:
No, no. He did?
TRUMP:
Oh. So we found—we helped them. Terrorists were assembling to blow up a big portion of Saint Petersburg. And we found out about it. And I said, notify them. They notified them. And Putin’s people went in and got them, probably 24 hours before they were going to do it. It was going to be a major terrorist attack in Saint Petersburg, Russia, which is a beautiful place. I was there a long time ago.
BW:
Yeah.
TRUMP:
And they were going to blow up a big, big important section of Saint Petersburg. And I got a call yesterday morning from President Putin, who I get along with very well. That’s a good thing, not a bad thing, by the way.
BW:
I know. [laughing] I understand.
TRUMP:
Anyway, he called me to thank me that they were able to capture these terrorists—they were terrorists—prior to this event taking place. I thought it was very, very good, very good. That’s the way we should work. When are you putting the book out?
BW:
I don’t know. When I get done. And, you know, there’s just lots of work—
TRUMP:
Since I saw you last, I have approved $738 billion for Space Force, for the Wall—
BW:
I saw that. Yes. Now, I want to go back to the Syrian situation.
TRUMP:
By the way, excuse me, 70 years ago, we got the Air Force.
BW:
Now we have Space Force.
TRUMP:
Now we’ve got Space Force, Joint Chiefs of Staff. I created a branch, the sixth branch, of the United States military. That’s a big story. That’s a big thing. And by the way, very important, because that’s where it’s going. It’s all going up to space. Hard to believe. When you look at the great, sophisticated military equipment now, you will see that it’s all controlled by space. Very important. So we have Space Force.
BW:
Everyone—
TRUMP:
Would you say that’s a pretty good achievement? That’s just one of many. One of many, my Bob.
BW:
And so you’re going to be—
TRUMP:
Should’ve done the book—30, 25 years ago, he came to my office.
COMMENTARY: Again, Carl Bernstein and I had gone to interview Trump in 1987. We didn’t end up doing a story or a book, but Trump always recalls the meeting.
BW:
What’s so interesting here is, how does this all end?
TRUMP:
What all end?
BW:
The situation next year with the reelection. Everything’s about reelection, don’t you think?
TRUMP:
I think the impeachment hoax is playing very badly for the Democrats. And I see it two ways. In the history of politics, there’s never been fundraising like I’m doing. Hundreds of millions of dollars of cash is pouring into the campaign. And much of it is because of the impeachment hoax. That’s number one. Number two, my poll numbers are through the roof.
TRUMP:
Since I last saw you, we killed al-Baghdadi. Since I last saw you, we killed the second, who was going to be the first. And we have the third on the—shhh—you know.
BW:
I saw that. Okay. The question about the Syrian situation is, I’ve found, and my assistant, that you have what they call kind of a shadow system on the phone of calling people where the intel people don’t know and it pisses them off. Is that correct?
TRUMP:
I don’t know if it pisses them off.
BW:
Okay, but you do have a shadow—
TRUMP:
But I get better intel the way I do it than I can ever get from other people.
BW:
And with Erdogan in Turkey, seven calls my assistant has found that you had with him before you finally announced you were pulling out,—
TRUMP:
No.
BW:
—which led to the Mattis resignation.
TRUMP:
Now, let me tell you, it had very—that did not. Mattis left because he knew I didn’t want him. He was one of the world’s most overrated generals. And his name was not Mad Dog. I gave him that name. His name was Chaos, okay, and Chaos I didn’t like. I said, you know what—
BW:
Did you work the system—
TRUMP:
And Mattis turned out to be—he was a nice guy, Mattis. I thought he was a nice guy. I actually got along with him okay. But he didn’t do what I wanted him to do.
BW:
But did you work out with Erdogan—I just, I’m trying to see about this shadow communications system you have.
TRUMP:
Let me just tell you.
BW:
Okay.
TRUMP:
Where I talk to him more than any other time was—and I think it worked out great, and I think—do you ever see—You know, I use the analogy, and it’s probably a little strange, sometimes you have two kids in a playground. They hate each other. Sometimes you let them fight for a minute, and then you break them up. That’s what I did. They fought for a few days, and it was vicious. And then I told them, you don’t stop, because I’ve created an economic wonder. The United States has far—
BW:
And did you tell Erdogan—
TRUMP:
You know what we’re up? We’re up many trillions of dollars. China’s down many trillions of dollars.
BW:
Understand. I just want to get this one detail nailed down, President Trump.
TRUMP:
Go ahead. Go ahead.
BW:
Did you tell Erdogan, look, it’s all yours, we’re done, and then four days later you tweeted it and announced it?
TRUMP:
No. No. Well, you saw the letter I wrote. Didn’t you see the very strong—
BW:
Yes sir. [laughs] Very—
TRUMP:
No, I didn’t say that.
BW:
“Don’t be a fool.”
TRUMP:
I said, don’t do it, but we’re leaving. But I don’t think you should do it.
BW:
Yeah. But you do have a shadow communication system, that’s correct?
TRUMP:
He decided—well no, I get along with world leaders. Excuse me, NATO. I just—you know I just raised $530 billion.
BW:
Yes, sir. I know.
TRUMP:
Which nobody in the newspapers write about.
BW:
But you do have a shadow communication system.
TRUMP:
I get along with people. I talk to people. Yeah, I mean, I do.
COMMENTARY: This was an important acknowledgement that there might be transcripts, reliable accounts or even audio recordings of his phone calls. But various investigations initially did not uncover anything conclusive.
BW:
The intel people and a lot of people in the government don’t like it.
TRUMP:
I don’t know if they like it. I just want them to do their jobs.
BW:
I know they don’t like it, because they told me. [laughs]
TRUMP:
Okay. I want them to do their jobs. If you think I’m happy with intel after what I went through with Comey, who’s a—stupid guy, a very stupid guy. But when I have Brennan, I have Clapper, I have Comey.
COMMENTARY: Trump is referring to former CIA director John Brennan, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, and Director of the FBI James Comey, who all served under Obama.
TRUMP:
I have this scum that I have to deal with. That the remnants of it—and there are many other people I could name, but I won’t bother naming them right now—and then I’m supposed to say how wonderful our intelligence is? I don’t think so. That’s not going to happen.
GIDLEY:
Excuse me one second. What is a shadow communications—he’s the president of the United States. If he makes the call, that’s the call.
BW:
No—I understand. But it’s on a system that doesn’t necessarily involve the NSC or the—
TRUMP:
No, I have no secrets. I have no secrets from anybody in our government. But Brennan who’s absolutely in my opinion a garbageman—
BW:
Yeah.
TRUMP:
But if you think I’m supposed to be in love with intelligence, you’re wrong.
COMMENTARY: Trump’s former director of national intelligence, Dan Coats, believed the greatest threat to the U.S. national security apparatus, was that Trump wanted to ignore any kind of process that went through experts—people steeped in certain issues or certain parts of the world.
The president believed he could pick up the phone and call anybody he wanted. Trump’s attitude was: “I can solve all these problems.” He didn’t care for expert, professional assessments or options. He thought he could get better intelligence on his own. Coats knew that key leaders such as Putin, Xi of China, and Erdogan of Turkey would lie to Trump. They played Trump skillfully. They would roll out the red carpet for him, flatter him, then the leaders would do what they wanted.
TRUMP:
Hey, I told you the story. I came to Washington. I didn’t know anybody. I was here 17 days. My entire life, never stayed over at night. Never once. Maybe one night, who knows? I don’t know, you’ll find one night I stayed over, but basically I was here 17 times in my entire life. Right? And all of a sudden I’m running this vast country.
BW:
Going back to Mattis again. He had such stature, in your eyes.
TRUMP:
He did. He had stature in my eyes, but I did change his name—
BW:
Yes, I understand.
TRUMP:
His moniker.
BW:
And one of the things he said on this issue—
TRUMP:
But he was fired by Obama.
BW:
Yes, he was. Your relations with Kim Jong Un, which we talked about, which in the end you’ve said it’s instinct. Instinct.
TRUMP:
What did you think of the letters? Let me ask you—it’s all instinct. It’s all relationship.
BW:
And so one of the things Mattis has said—
TRUMP:
Let me ask you real fast. You looked at the letters. I showed them to nobody. Nobody. Nobody has seen those. You looked at them.
BW:
I know.
TRUMP:
What did you think? Pretty amazing, right?
BW:
Astonishing. Because at one point, he talks about a fantasy film, that you’re going to be in a fantasy film if you meet again after the first meeting. [laughs]
COMMENTARY: This is an excerpt from the letter that Kim sent to Trump on December 25, 2018, Christmas Day:
“Your Excellency, It has been 200 days since the historic summit in Singapore this past June. The year is now almost coming to an end. Even now I cannot forget the moment of history when I firmly held Your Excellency’s hand at the beautiful and sacred location as the whole world watched with great interest and hope to relive the honor of that day. As I mentioned at the time, I feel very honored to have established an excellent relationship with a person such as Your Excellency.
As the new year 2019 approaches, critical issues that require endless effort toward higher ideals and goals still await us. Just as Your Excellency frankly noted, as we enter the new year the whole world will certainly once again come to see, not so far in the future, another historic meeting between myself and Your Excellency reminiscent of a scene from a fantasy film.”
BW:
What’d you think of that?
TRUMP:
Well, he wants to meet. He wants to meet now. That’s no normal relationship, right? You know, you have people, historians that study him, his father and his grandfather. They study them. You have Asian historians that really study him. He’s never written a letter to anybody. You saw—how many, 10?
BW:
Yes, I know. But it’s going to be a fantasy film. What’d you think when you read that? For history, for the book.
TRUMP:
I think—
BW:
Because that’s an astonishing—
TRUMP:
I think that Kim Jong Un and I have a good chemistry together.
BW:
Yeah. See, even—
TRUMP:
Wouldn’t you say that, when you see what you’ve read? Shocking.
BW:
Yes, and one of the things Mattis has said is that there was a little magic—his word—that you had with Kim, Erdogan, Putin, and Xi. Is that right?
TRUMP:
Magic is an interesting word. It’s called chemistry. I have good chemistry with a lot of people. And I have—
BW:
Mattis has called it diplomacy by theatrics.
TRUMP:
Well, I don’t know. I think his first definition maybe is better.
BW:
Magic?
TRUMP:
But I don’t think—I’d say—I’ll tell you this. If I weren’t president, we would have—perhaps it would be over by now, and perhaps it wouldn’t—we would’ve been in a major war with North Korea. And when I met with Barack Obama—I don’t know if he’ll tell you this—
BW:
Yes. Oh, we’ve gone through this.
TRUMP:
—but Bob, I’m telling you, he told me—he essentially told me that he thinks—and he did try to call them, many times, and he was unable to get—
BW:
But at one of these meetings about Kim, and as you’re developing your relationship with Kim, in the notes, Mattis says to you about Kim, he lies through his teeth to you. Do you remember that?
TRUMP:
Not specifically, no. Look, he said a lot of things. We had nothing to lose. I have a meeting. I gave nothing. The sanctions are at their all-time high right now. Bob, what did I give? When the fake news reports Donald Trump is meeting, he’s given so much, I keep saying, what did I give? I gave nothing.
BW:
Well see, this is the conventional, old-Washington, establishment view that you don’t do this, you have to build up and send—
TRUMP:
It’s bullshit.
BW:
—diplomats and so forth. So even Mattis said—
TRUMP:
I had—I’ll tell you what, I had a good relationship with Kim Jong Un from the first moment I met him.
BW:
And so one of the things Mattis said is actually the relationship that the president had with Kim probably gave Kim a reason not to do something nutty. So he’s giving you credit.
TRUMP:
I know that. He felt it was amazing, actually. I don’t know that he’d say that, but he felt it was amazing.
BW:
Well, here he says it kept him from doing something nutty. Of course, that’s the big fear.
TRUMP:
Well, excuse me, so far you haven’t seen any Christmas surprise. You know, Christmas is three days ago, okay?
BW:
Understand. And everyone was writing these stories—
TRUMP:
And everyone was very worried, except me. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but I’m saying, what do we have to lose? Hey, for three years we’ve had peace. For three years we haven’t had a nuclear test. For three years we haven’t had a ballistic missile. Now, that doesn’t mean it’s going to continue Bob, but what the hell have we lost? We gained three years, okay? We haven’t lost anything. And a lot of things can happen. A lot of things can happen.
BW:
Are you optimistic about this next year with Kim?
TRUMP:
No, but I’m not pessimistic either. I can’t tell you.
BW:
Are you going to meet again?
TRUMP:
He would like to.
BW:
Another episode of the fantasy film?
TRUMP:
Don’t forget, don’t forget—the last meeting, I said, you’re not ready. He wanted to close two, probably, of the five plants. I said, even if you close four, that’s not good.
BW:
Yeah. You want all five.
TRUMP:
I said, you’re my friend, but you’re not ready to make a deal. I said, I’m going home.
BW:
Well, he’s not ready to denuclearize.
TRUMP:
Well, but he saw—you’ve got to look, you gotta look. He signed a document, and my first—it said he’s going to denuclearize. The press keep saying, he never—well, he signed a document that said he is going to—well no, I know, but that’s all I can have.
BW:
Yeah. But he’s not—if you were him, you wouldn’t—those nukes are his leverage, are his status symbol.
TRUMP:
It could also be the end of his country.
BW:
Yeah. Well, of course that’s the threat.
TRUMP:
You know? Can also be—I told him. I talked to him very openly. Look, I did something when I walked on to his land. I said, you want me to walk on? He said, I would love to. Then I was supposed to just do a step, but—
BW:
I need to get—
TRUMP:
We’ll be okay time-wise.
BW:
—all those letters you sent.
COMMENTARY: I am asking for Trump’s letters to Kim Jong Un. I had Kim’s letters to Trump.
BW:
Because this relationship, when—I’ve got Mattis saying, well, actually, it kept Kim from doing something nutty, that’s pretty—
TRUMP:
So, Bob, when I first got in office, the rhetoric I used was probably the toughest rhetoric ever used—
BW:
I know. [laughter]
TRUMP:
—by a president in this country at any time.
BW:
It was staggering.
TRUMP:
There’s nobody that’s tougher than me. Nobody’s tougher than me. You asked me about impeachment. I’m under impeachment, and you said you just act like you just won the fucking race. Nixon was in a corner with his thumb in his mouth. Bill Clinton took it very, very hard. I just do things, okay? I do what I want.
BW:
Do you feel now looking at it—and again, this is for serious history, President Trump—that you wound up with Zelensky in that phone call, you gave them a sword?
TRUMP:
It’s a perfect phone call. No. I don’t. I didn’t give them a sword.
BW:
You don’t think you gave them a sword?
TRUMP:
Let me tell you what they did. They failed in Russia. Failed horribly with Mueller. And then on top of it, Mueller testified and he was a disaster. And that was their words, not mine.
BW:
Understand. Understand.
TRUMP:
Their biggest, stupidest spokespeople said oh, my God, he was a disaster. That’s a quote. They said, they used the word he’s a disaster. Now, as days went by—
BW:
Did you watch any of Mueller?
TRUMP:
Sure I did. Who didn’t watch it? Let me just tell you about Zelensky. They never in a million years thought I was going to release the call, number one. Number two, they never in a million years thought that we had it transcribed. I want my calls transcribed.
BW:
Understand.
TRUMP:
I never in a million years thought I’d have to use it. If I didn’t have that call transcribed—someday I’ll be given great credit for that. I wanted that. All my things. Here’s the reason.
BW:
Is it—President Trump, just for a second, please—
TRUMP:
If I didn’t have that transcribed, they made up my call. Look—Schiff—
BW:
No, it’s the transcript that’s the sword for them.
COMMENTARY: It was my belief that the transcript was the proof, far more compelling than the whistleblower report.
TRUMP:
No. Okay.
BW:
You can argue against it—
TRUMP:
Let’s assume I didn’t have a transcription—
BW:
No, I’m just saying—
TRUMP:
—then I would’ve lived with a false report by a whistleblower saying that it was a terrible call. There was nothing wrong with those calls. There were two calls, not one. Two calls.
BW:
I understand. I’ve looked at them all. I’ve looked at them all.
TRUMP:
And it said, it talked about us. It talked about help us, comma, the country. Our country.
BW:
Can I ask you this, President Trump?
TRUMP:
And then I talked about see the attorney general.
BW:
As a matter of policy, would you want the president of the United States to be talking to foreign leaders about investigating anyone, particularly some—that’s just bad policy, isn’t it?
TRUMP:
Let me explain. Let me explain.
BW:
You understand what I’m—as a matter of policy, do you want the president of the United States—
TRUMP:
I think it’s fine. But there’s no—well, let me tell you—
BW:
You do?
TRUMP:
When we’re giving vast amounts of money to a country, I think you have to say if they’re corrupt, where is this money coming from? Why is it that there’s such corruption when we’re giving it? And you know, there’s another thing that I also talk about. And I talk about why isn’t Germany, France, the European nations who are much more affected by Ukraine than us, because Ukraine is like a massive wall. Think of it as a wall between Russia and Europe, okay?
COMMENTARY: This is an important statement since Putin later demolished that wall by invading Ukraine in early 2022. I then proceeded to question Trump on the impeachment issue. Since he never testified at his impeachment trial it is the only time he was aggressively questioned—even interrogated—about it.
BW:
Will you allow me to persist with I think this is the important, core question in this?
TRUMP:
There wasn’t a thing—excuse me, Bob, there wasn’t a thing wrong with that call.
BW:
Well—
TRUMP:
And those people—now here’s what was—
BW:
Do you want the policy of the United States to be that the president of the United States can talk to foreign leaders and say, investigate? I want you to talk to the attorney general about investigating somebody who’s a political opponent?
TRUMP:
No. No. No. I want them to investigate corruption. What he did was corrupt. I want them to investigate corruption. And I didn’t say, call my campaign manager. I said, the attorney general of the United States—
BW:
Right. I know that.
TRUMP:
And I didn’t say we. Now, when the Democrats—
BW:
And it’s been misreported by saying oh, you asked a favor. That was about CrowdStrike.
TRUMP:
No, no. They talked about, will you do me a favor? They always say that. It’s not me. It said, will you do us a favor, comma, our country—ba, ba, ba.
BW:
I understand the defense. I’m asking the policy question.
TRUMP:
No, but I’m just saying this. When the Democrats talk about that call, they always quote, do me a favor, do me a favor. You see it hundreds of times. We don’t let them get away with it. And you have to say one thing: no, I want corruption investigated. And how can we investigate corruption in a foreign country? How can we do that? We can’t do that. We can’t do it because we’re not—you know, we don’t have access. We’re giving billions of dollars away to a foreign country. Yes, we should have the right to investigate corruption.
BW:
I understand the points you’re making. I’m asking the policy question, is this a good policy for the president of the United States, to be talking to foreign leaders about—
TRUMP:
Okay, ready?
BW:
—investigating anyone—
TRUMP:
Corruption. Yes, corruption.
BW:
Well, but naming a political opponent.
TRUMP:
If the political opponent is corrupt, they can let us know. Look, his son—
BW:
Do you think that’s the president’s job?
TRUMP:
His son—
BW:
Is that the president’s job? I’m sorry to persist on this, but—
TRUMP:
The president’s job is to investigate corruption.
BW:
Yeah.
TRUMP:
If there was corruption, we’re giving billions of dollars to a country, that country should let us know if there’s corruption.
BW:
You don’t see the other side on this at all?
TRUMP:
I don’t see it at all, no.
BW:
Zero?
TRUMP:
No. If there was no corruption—but there was corruption. And when you look at that tape of Joe Biden, quid pro Joe, they call him. Quid. Pro. Joe. When you look at that tape, Bob, that’s—that’s the ultimate quid pro quo. Okay? It’s the ultimate.
BW:
Okay. I just wanted to ask, I wanted—
TRUMP:
I’m only saying this. Look, I’m only saying this. That conversation I had with him was perfect. But here’s what happened. You had an informer who now disappeared. You had a second whistleblower who now disappeared. You had the first whistleblower who reported the call. He reported it totally different than—there were eight quid pro quos. There was that statement that Schiff dishonestly made. Don’t call me, I’ll call you. I didn’t say that. I didn’t say quid pro quo. There was no quid pro quo. I didn’t say, if you don’t do this, we’re not going to do that.
BW:
I understand your defense, sir.
TRUMP:
There was none of that. No, no—
BW:
I understand the defense.
TRUMP:
Well, how can you have a better defense?
BW:
Would you want the next president of the United States to be talking to foreign leaders about investigating political opponents? Would that—
TRUMP:
I would want the next president of the United States to investigate corruption. And in fact, we have a treaty signed with Ukraine, because it is a very corrupt country in the past. Hopefully the new president will do something about it, but we have a treaty that we actually have to do it.
BW:
You see why I’m asking these questions?
TRUMP:
Look, look, what happened here is very interesting.
BW:
Indeed it is.
TRUMP:
They made up a phony conversation, and it sounded terrible. The reason I released—
BW:
When you released that transcript, you gave them a sword, President Trump.
TRUMP:
No, the opposite.
BW:
Yes, you did. Well, I know you say you—
TRUMP:
Look, let me ask you a question.
BW:
Sure, of course.
TRUMP:
Wait, wait. I had a very innocent conversation with the leader of a country. Not one, two conversations. You’ve got a report. The first one was hello, the second—talking about do us, as a country. Okay, you ready? If I didn’t have that transcript, I would have a very big problem right now.
BW:
No, sir. You would not.
TRUMP:
Excuse me. I had a whistleblower—
BW:
There’s a kind of clarity in a transcript—I know this going back to the Nixon tapes. As soon as you have a transcript, even though it’s not, you know, entirely perfect, verbatim, as soon as you have that, that’s what everyone focuses on.
TRUMP:
The whistleblower wrote this horrible thing. And it was out that the whistleblower said with, I think certainty, all of these horrible things that took place in this conversation, Bob. If I didn’t have a transcript, I would’ve had a big problem.
BW:
But it just would’ve been a whistleblower report.
TRUMP:
They made up—
BW:
Okay.
TRUMP:
Bob, Bob, they made up a story.
BW:
You understand why I’m asking the question, I hope.
TRUMP:
The transcription, this transcribed report, was perfect. Nothing was wrong. If you read the whistleblower report, you would’ve said that’s the most horrible thing that a president has ever said.
BW:
But it has very fuzzy status, because it’s just a whistleblower report. The transcript—
TRUMP:
Ready? The whistleblower report—
BW:
You know—
TRUMP:
Okay, before I do the transcript—
BW:
—me well enough to know that I’m—
TRUMP:
I know. I know. And I think—
BW:
—I’m neutral.
TRUMP:
—I think you believe it, but I think you’re wrong. Ready? The whistleblower report, before you ever heard of a transcript, it was given to Congress.
BW:
It doesn’t have any standing.
TRUMP:
It blew up.
COMMENTARY: The whistleblower report was written by Lt. Col. Vindman, who reported on the call and alleged that it was improper. Vindman was a member of the National Security Council staff.
TRUMP:
It blew up. We were getting—and all we had, it was going to be a disaster.
BW:
But it’s not proof.
TRUMP:
It was a false report, written by a guy whose lawyer is a scumbag, okay, a real scumbag. Look at the background of these people. The whistleblower report was a fraud. If I didn’t put out this very innocent conversation I had with the president of Ukraine, who then confirmed the conversation saying there was no pressure put on him whatsoever—
BW:
Okay. You’re willing to have this conversation, and you know me well enough, I’m—I really want to understand in a comprehensive way—
TRUMP:
Let me ask you, so I have an innocent conversation. Do us, the United States, a favor. Then I say, our country—
BW:
I understand.
TRUMP:
—I don’t say my campaign, I say our country. And then I say the attorney general of the United States. Okay? If I didn’t have that very accurate transcription—and now it’s been proven to be accurate because even these lieutenant colonels agreed that it was accurate. Okay, so you know—I don’t know, I think it would’ve been a disaster.
BW:
I’m going to tell you something from my experience.
TRUMP:
Go ahead.
BW:
Because you’ve been very—
TRUMP:
Nobody more experienced.
BW:
Well, you’re willing to have this—as you know in the Nixon case, I always said afterwards—
TRUMP:
By the way, this is a much different case.
BW:
Yes. I’m the first to say that. It’s massive.
TRUMP:
This is peanuts compared—
BW:
But as soon as the Watergate burglars were caught, if Richard Nixon had gone on television and said, you know, I’m the man at the top. I’m indirectly responsible for this. I’m sorry. I apologize. It would’ve gone away. You don’t think so?
TRUMP:
I would never have done it here. Yeah, Nixon should’ve done that. But I shouldn’t have done, because I did nothing wrong. I did nothing wrong.
BW:
Have you ever found that you did nothing wrong, but apology is the path to ending the issue?
TRUMP:
I wouldn’t apologize if I did nothing. Can’t do it.
BW:
You can’t?
TRUMP:
No. If I did something wrong I could apologize. I mean, but I wouldn’t—
BW:
I think on this—I mean, again, I’m telling you from too many decades of experience in cases like this. If you apologized, it would go away.
TRUMP:
I think if I apologized, it would be a disaster.
BW:
Mm-mm.
TRUMP:
Because that would be admitting I did something wrong, and I didn’t.
BW:
Well—
TRUMP:
I didn’t do anything wrong, Bob. I had a very good conversation with a very nice man who—who, by the way, when we did finally meet at a news conference—
BW:
I think they used it against you because—
TRUMP:
Because they failed with Mueller.
BW:
No, it’s a simple definition of, oh, he’s on the phone. You clearly wanted the Bidens investigated. And—
TRUMP:
No. No. I want corruption investigated, Bob.
BW:
Okay. I understand your—
TRUMP:
Bob, I want corruption. We’re giving them.
BW:
—defense. Okay.
TRUMP:
And you know what else was in there that they didn’t talk about? The Merkel statement. I said, why isn’t Germany? Why isn’t France? Why aren’t these other countries putting up money? Why is it always the foolish United States?
BW:
I know it wouldn’t fit with your persona to apologize.
TRUMP:
I would totally apologize if I did something wrong.
BW:
I—it’s just—it’s bad policy. And that’s what they—
TRUMP:
It’s not bad policy to investigate corruption.
COMMENTARY: I believed what Trump had done was wrong. But I knew from our past interviews once Trump dug in he’d be immovable, especially in the middle of his impeachment trial. I was trying to get him to instead look at it from a different perspective. And I wanted to engage him with the broader policy question. Was it good policy for a sitting president to ask a foreign leader to investigate his political opponent?
BW:
Mr. President, that’s what they—
TRUMP:
Why should we be giving money to a country that’s going to use the money in a corrupt fashion? We actually—you have to do this—
BW:
You know lots of our money—
TRUMP:
We have a treaty. I think it’s 1999 or something. We have a treaty with Ukraine, talking about corruption. We don’t have those treaties with other countries, that I know of, for the most part, because Ukraine was very corrupt. We actually—I actually have an obligation—
BW:
Who’s the person you trust most in the world?
TRUMP:
[long pause, then Trump chuckles] That’s an interesting question. I don’t know. I don’t want to get into it, because I have so many people—I have great family. I trust my family members.
BW:
Okay. Ask them if you should apologize.
TRUMP:
I think they—I think if I apologized—I think if I apologized for something that I did nothing wrong—I believe—
BW:
It’s a question of—
TRUMP:
[deep sigh] How can I apologize for making a decent statement? A very appropriate statement?
BW:
And I appreciate your indulgence. I am telling you my experience, and my conviction, my reportorial belief, you gave them a sword when you released that transcript. Now—
TRUMP:
I have such respect for you. And I so disagree with you. [laughter]
BW:
Okay.
TRUMP:
I think if I didn’t have a transcription—if for some reason it wasn’t made, let’s say. You know we have these very professional people, and it was very accurate. And now that’s been—the one thing that really came out good—the lieutenant colonel said, one thing, could you mention—but people now agree that it was accurate. I think this. If I didn’t have a transcription, they would have made up a story that was so phony, and I would’ve had no defense.
BW:
Okay. I met Ivanka coming in.
TRUMP:
Good.
BW:
I’m just saying this from—take her for a walk around this lovely place.
TRUMP:
I’ll ask her.
BW:
And say, would an apology, carefully phrased, end this or put it in a context?
TRUMP:
It would be a disaster. You know, I have this reputation of not being willing to apologize. It’s wrong. I will apologize, if I’m wrong. This conversation—
BW:
Yeah. When’s the last time you apologized?
TRUMP:
Oh, I don’t know, but I think over a period—I would apologize. Here’s the thing: I’m never wrong. Okay. [laughter] No, if I’m wrong—if I’m wrong—I believe in apologizing. This was a totally appropriate conversation. We have an agreement with Ukraine.
BW:
I understand.
TRUMP:
We have all these things.
BW:
I understand all the background.
TRUMP:
But what I said—what I said—I use the word perfect. It was perfect.
BW:
Yeah.
TRUMP:
And again, if I did something wrong, I would apologize. Okay?
BW:
Understand. And look, let me say—
TRUMP:
I just told you that I—I went through hell for the good of the country. I went through hell in the Mueller report because instead of firing everybody—which could’ve been a much easier solution—I said I’m not going to fire anybody. I’m going to let this go through and through and through. And they kept it going much longer than they should have. And it turned out then Mueller was a disaster. You know the whole thing.
BW:
You’re Job. You’re Job. From the Bible, do you realize that? [laughter]
COMMENTARY: I said this ironically. As frustrated and defensive as Trump got, he never showed anger. He let me push him and push him and his answers were reduced to one simple declaration, namely that the call was “perfect.”
TRUMP:
What I did, and it was the wrong thing they did to me, it was a wrong thing they did to my family. They hurt my family very badly.
BW:
—Hogan has asked me to leave. [laughter]
TRUMP:
You go ahead. I like [him]. [I don’t even know if I have anything].
BW:
You said something that really grabbed me. We were talking about Kim Jong Un and North Korea and instinct.
TRUMP:
Yeah.
BW:
And you said, parenthetically, but it was one of those things that came from the heart, “I’m here because of instinct.”
TRUMP:
Yeah, that’s true.
BW:
Elaborate. I mean, that’s an important part of the Donald Trump story. And when you said that and the way you said it, “I’m here because of instinct.”
TRUMP:
I never thought of it until you and I talked. But I said that. I remember saying that. And I said, hmm. Yeah, I’m here because of instinct.
BW:
Explain it.
TRUMP:
So when I—you mean why I’m president? In other words, how I made the decision?
BW:
What instinct operated to—
TRUMP:
So I had many professional people that said it’s impossible for a non-politician, because it’s never happened, unless you’re a general.
BW:
Right.
TRUMP:
It’s only been a general or a politician, but 90 percent have been politicians, right? Plus there’s a certain expertise, plus it’s what they’ve been doing, plus a lot of things. Right? But many people said that it’s impossible to win. And I felt that winning would be easy.
BW:
Why?
TRUMP:
Because I’ve dealt with politicians all my life. I’ve dealt with a lot of people. I’ve dealt with a lot of people. And even the first time, you know, with Romney, a poll came out that I was leading Romney at the beginning. I couldn’t do it because I was signed with NBC, with The Apprentice, I was building two big buildings that were very expensive, very great buildings and I had to finish them. I didn’t—my kids were younger, etc. So there were reasons. But I always felt if I ran—the only time I ever thought about it was the previous four years before with the Romney run. It was just very hard because I had contractual obligations.
BW:
But you know in the campaign, the 2016 campaign, you said some very tough things.
TRUMP:
Yeah.
BW:
And you said some outrageous things, too. Right?
TRUMP:
Well, obviously they worked.
BW:
Was that instinct?
TRUMP:
It was instinct. It was common sense. And it was from the heart. And I said them because it’s good for the country. For instance, in my original speech, when I came down the escalator, I made the speech. I talked about rape.
BW:
Yeah, I know.
TRUMP:
I used—that’s a very tough word, rape. Yeah, I think I’m here because of instinct. I think if I would’ve listened to everybody—you know, most people said you can’t do it.
BW:
I watched those debates. And you were tough. I mean, is it that people are looking for somebody who’s tough? And the only way to prove that you’re tough is to go over the line a little bit, as you did a number of times. I think you would acknowledge?
TRUMP:
I don’t know. I’m not sure. You know, it’s funny with the debates. I don’t know if I mentioned it, but you know my whole life has been a debate, but I never debated professionally or anything. But I said, huh. And I checked. And you know, Ted Cruz was the national debate champion. I don’t know if you know that. Princeton top—
BW:
Yeah. I know.
TRUMP:
Harvard. And he was national debate—and many of these guys always wanted to be politicians. They were—you know, that’s what they do. I debated with instinct more than I did with vast knowledge. I think I’ve developed a vast knowledge.
BW:
Did you realize that it was instinct operating? Because it was—
TRUMP:
I don’t know. Let me tell you what I realized. I don’t think, oh gee, it’s my instinct. Because I think if you do, you no longer have instinct. Do you understand?
BW:
Really?
TRUMP:
When you start thinking about oh, my instinct, I think it’s got to be—it’s gotta happen—
BW:
It’s got to come from the gut.
TRUMP:
It’s got to flow. But here’s the thing. I never left center stage. So anyway, I think Bob that instinct is a very important thing to have—if you have a good instinct about things. You have a lot of things coming at you. You have a lot of things coming at you.
BW:
I think it’s because people wanted someone tough.
TRUMP:
Maybe. Do you know that Obama campaigned harder against me than Hillary Clinton?
BW:
I know you said that. I’m not sure that’s true.
TRUMP:
Yeah, he did. And he also campaigned very dishonestly against me. Okay?
BW:
How did Barr decide to open this Durham investigation?
TRUMP:
You’d have to ask Barr.
BW:
Did he tell you he was doing it?
TRUMP:
Well, he told everybody he was doing it. I think it’s going to be big leak.
BW:
Could be.
TRUMP:
There’s tremendous corruption.
COMMENTARY: Attorney General Barr appointed Connecticut U.S. Attorney Durham to investigate if there was wrongdoing in the opening of the Russia investigation in 2016. Trump hopes that it will find evidence that his campaign was spied on. Dan Scavino then enters the room.
TRUMP:
Ask him how many people. How many people do I have?
SCAVINO:
I actually did it today, 176.2 million people on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn.
TRUMP:
It’s six different sites. Now that’s—by the way, so when I have—that’s more than all of these people put together. My wonderful, dishonest media. Listen—
BW:
Do you agree—
TRUMP:
Do me a favor. Hey, Dan. That’s on six different sites—
BW:
—with your new national security adviser? I talked to him the other day.
TRUMP:
Yeah. Nice man.
BW:
We had a very good talk. And he said the core of national security now is how to deal with a rising China and a declining Russia.
TRUMP:
No, I don’t agree. I don’t think Russia is declining.
BW:
You don’t?
TRUMP:
No, not at all. I think Russia is a smaller economy, but I think that they’re a strong military. I think they have vast natural resources. And they have a lot of pride in themselves. No, I disagree with that. I didn’t know that he said that. That’s his opinion.
BW:
He said—he was very emphatic.
TRUMP:
No, no, that’s wrong. He’s wrong.
BW:
He said what happened, China likes to live in the future. Trump—you, President Trump—pulled the Chinese out of the future, into the here and now.
TRUMP:
Well, they had the worst year they’ve had in—now 68, it was 57, now it’s 68 years. This is the worst year they’ve had, because of what I’ve done with the companies and with the tariffs.
BW:
Yeah.
COMMENTARY: Trump has publicly claimed vastly different statistics on China ranging from the worst year in 27 years to the worst year in 61 years.
TRUMP:
I think Russia though has a great opportunity for success. And by the way, nobody’s been tougher.
BW:
All these people think, like I think Mattis thinks, all roads lead to Moscow.
TRUMP:
Yeah. Nobody’s been tougher than me.
BW:
And Dan Coats thinks—Dan Coats thinks all roads lead to Moscow.
TRUMP:
Is that because of me?
BW:
Yeah.
TRUMP:
Oh, you think Dan Coats was negative to me?
BW:
Yeah, on this. That you were—
TRUMP:
Well, that’s a big thing.
BW:
That you had this affection for Putin and Moscow.
TRUMP:
Excuse me. I like Putin. Our relationship should be a very good one. I campaigned on getting along with Russia, China, and everyone else.
BW:
I remember.
COMMENTARY: Rex Tillerson, who had headed ExxonMobil, the largest publicly traded oil and gas company in the world over an eleven-year period, had become Trump’s first secretary of state, the top cabinet post. Russia’s largest oil exploration area in the world was with Exxon.
Tillerson, who met regularly with Putin, told Trump: “Putin feels like we treat Russia like a banana republic.” Tillerson recalled for Trump how in 2015 he had been tooling around the Black Sea on Putin’s yacht. “And Putin said to me, ‘You Americans think you won the Cold War. You did not win the Cold War. We never fought the Cold War. We could have, but we didn’t.’ ” Tillerson said the comment sent chills up his spine.
TRUMP:
Getting along with Russia is a good thing, not a bad thing, all right? Especially because they have 1,332 nuclear fucking warheads. And it’s so stupid to be—and they work. It’s not like gee, maybe North Korea’s work, maybe they don’t. They have tremendous nuclear power, but maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t. Getting along is a good thing, Bob. Not a bad thing. But the relationship was hurt by the Russian fraud, by the Russian hoax. It was hurt.
BW:
Understand. You’re going to be surprised what I—
TRUMP:
And by the way—
BW:
—found out about the Mueller investigation.
TRUMP:
I love that.
BW:
They did not—they—first of all, it was a rushed job. The report. And they didn’t realize they were putting inconsistencies in where they said, we don’t exonerate the president, and then they said but this report does not conclude the president committed a crime.
TRUMP:
I never even spoke to Russia. I have nothing to do with Russia.
BW:
I know. But they contradicted themselves.
TRUMP:
Well, Bob, the biggest thing you can do? Nobody ever has been tougher on Russia than me. I’m the one also that brought up Nord Stream. Nobody even knew what Nord Stream 2 was. That’s the big pipeline. You’d never heard of Nord Stream until I came along.
BW:
So does Putin get mad at you when you do these things?
TRUMP:
No, Putin respects me. And I respect Putin. I think Putin likes me. I think I like him. But here’s the—I do like him. Do you know that Putin—and I spoke to him about this on our last call, he wants to do a nonproliferation agreement. He wants to make far less weapons. So do I. I’d like to—
BW:
Well, then, do it.
TRUMP:
I can’t do it unless they agree. I can only do it if they agree. I’m the one that broke up, on top of everything else, I’m the one that ended the agreement. You know why? Because they weren’t living up to it. But wait a minute, Bob, just before you leave. He—I did far more to Russia—look at the tariffs, look at the sanctions. Look at all the stuff. Now at the same time, getting along with Russia is a good thing. Now, they just had a great prison swap, right?
BW:
O’Brien says we can’t have good relations with Russia if they are invading the neighbors, like—
TRUMP:
Well, I don’t like that. No.
BW:
—Ukraine, Georgia—
TRUMP:
But if you look at, because of us, they just did a big prison swap with Ukraine. A lot of things are happening, Bob. A lot of things. And nobody’s—Nord Stream. You take a look. It was never mentioned. Take a look at all of the things that I’ve done. Look at Ukraine. Obama sent them pillows. I sent them tank-busters. Okay?
BW:
Will you have that walk with Ivanka? And get her to call me?
TRUMP:
I will, but I disagree with you so much. It wouldn’t matter what she said.
BW:
I know, but what would you do if she says—
TRUMP:
It wouldn’t matter what she said.
BW:
—Dad, I think—
TRUMP:
He thinks—
GIDLEY:
He’s way off.
TRUMP:
He thinks that my call was less good with Ukraine. I said it was a perfect phone call. I talked about the United States.
BW:
No. Bad policy. Bad policy.
TRUMP:
And he thought—and I’m saying, investigate corruption. Okay? He thinks I should apologize. And I said, the problem is, it was a perfect call. I have nothing to apologize for. I think if I apologized, it would be a disaster. I don’t know.
[SCAVINO?]:
A hundred percent. The media would kill—
TRUMP:
Dan, show him this thing. Turn that off for a second.
BW:
Yes, sir.
TRUMP:
You won’t even believe this. Watch this.
BW:
Okay.
COMMENTARY: I shut off my tape recorder as requested.
Dan Scavino opened his laptop to show a clip of the president’s 2019 State of the Union speech. Instead of Trump’s words, hyped-up elevator music played as the camera panned for extended shots of senators and members of Congress watching and listening to Trump.
The first shot was of Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, who looked bored.
Trump was watching over my shoulder and was agitated. He was so close I thought I could feel his breath on my neck.
“They hate me,” the president said. “You’re seeing hate!”
I peered at the screen.
The camera stopped on Senator Elizabeth Warren, the Massachusetts liberal. She was listening and had a bland, unemotional look on her face.
“Hate!” said Trump.
A shot of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC) was next. She had no expression on her face.
Then Kamala Harris. Next year she would be chosen as Biden’s vice-presidential running mate. Harris had a bland, polite look on her face.
“Hate!” Trump said so loudly within inches of my neck that I jumped. “See the hate! See the hate!”
I didn’t see it. Many Democrats, of course, did hate Trump. They were vocal and angry opponents of his presidency. But his insistence that what I was seeing was “hate!” was unsupported by the images of Democrats on Scavino’s computer.
It was a remarkable moment. A psychiatrist might say it was a projection of Trump’s own hatred of Democrats.
To me, this Trump response was both unforgettable and bizarre.