INTERVIEW 13: I’m Sure He Said It
Phone call
May 6, 2020
TRUMP:
We’re coming back. The country’s coming back. I’m also a cheerleader for the country. You know I have to be the leader, but I have to be the cheerleader, too. You know? You can’t have a deadhead.
COMMENTARY: Now with the new explosive information about the January 28th meeting from O’Brien and Pottinger, I knew I had to confront Trump. It was the old Watergate question: What did the president know and when did he know it?
I reached Trump by phone at around 7 p.m. on Wednesday, May 6th. It was six months before the presidential election.
TRUMP:
Hi, Bob.
BW:
President Trump, how are you?
TRUMP:
How are you doing with my guys that I have working with you? You working with them?
BW:
I am. Jared’s really helping. O’Brien is, Pottinger is. I’ve got some other people helping. And we’re getting to the story. Jared said something the other day I wanted to ask you about. I’m going to turn on my recorder. This is all deep—
TRUMP:
Bob, I cannot spend any time on this. I’ve got the whole Joint Chiefs of Staff waiting for me downstairs.
BW:
Okay, good.
TRUMP:
Or at least part of them. So I’m going to have to go. But tell me, what did he—go ahead.
BW:
Well, he was talking—because I’m trying to get the big picture. He was talking about how you always discuss the touch on the putting green. No two putts are the same. So you get to the green and each putt is different. The conditions are different. The weather’s different. You’re feeling different. And so you always have to adjust for the shot that you have to make.
TRUMP:
Right.
BW:
I think that applies to what’s going on now.
TRUMP:
It applies to life. It applies to life, and certainly to what’s going on now. And I’ll tell you, I don’t know if you see it yet, but there’s a great spirit with this opening up the country, Bob. There’s a great spirit.
COMMENTARY: I did not feel anything resembling a great spirit. I could not hear anyone applauding. The country was paralyzed.
TRUMP:
And we would’ve lost two million people, maybe more than that, if we didn’t do what we did. But there’s a great—don’t believe the stuff with the herd, the herd. If we would’ve left this open, it would’ve been one of the great disasters of all time.
COMMENTARY: Trump’s reference to “the herd” is “herd immunity,” which occurs when a large portion of a community becomes immune to a disease either through vaccine or exposure.
TRUMP:
Look at what’s going on in Brazil and look at what’s going on in a couple of the countries.
BW:
I know there’s so much out there.
TRUMP:
By the way, look at Sweden. You know Sweden’s lost 4,800 people as of today. Denmark is at 206. And I guess Norway is at 406. I just have numbers here. So, you know, you hear these stories, but then you say, well wait a minute, but the facts don’t bear them out. Brazil is a disaster. You know, they did the herd. You know what the herd is, right?
BW:
And so you have to make the calculation how to measure all the conditions: the weather, how you feel, how you make the adjustments—
TRUMP:
Yeah, right. That’s right. You’ve got to figure it all out, Bob, otherwise it doesn’t work out so well.
BW:
Yeah. How do you feel about that now?
TRUMP:
I feel that we’re doing well. We have six months to go. I was sailing, sailing. Like, I could show you numbers—
BW:
I know. I know.
TRUMP:
I was up 10 and 12. I was presiding over the greatest economy in the world.
BW:
No, I know. And now people say—
TRUMP:
[?]
BW:
—the race, presidential race, is a coin toss. Do you think that’s—
TRUMP:
Yeah, I guess. You know, maybe. And maybe not. I’m up 28 points in enthusiasm. That’s a big number. [BW laughs] Enthusiasm. You know what I mean, right?
BW:
Yes.
TRUMP:
My people vote, and they vote seriously. And I don’t see it with my opponent, Sleepy Joe. But we’ll have to see what happens, Bob. We’re doing a very good job. We’re not getting credit for the job we’re doing. The job we’re doing is an incredible job, just like the job I did on the economy before. But I think this: if the economy starts going up and if we get rid of the plague—
BW:
This is the toughest job. And one of those calls I talked to Ambassador O’Brien and Pottinger about was in March when you talked to President Xi. You started in the middle of the month referring to the Chinese virus.
TRUMP:
Right.
BW:
And that set people off, and apparently it set President Xi off. Do you recall that?
TRUMP:
Yeah, sure.
BW:
What happened?
TRUMP:
Well, I referred to it as the Chinese virus. And they called and very respectfully asked if it would be possible for me not to do that. And I said, I respect that request. There was no reason to do that. So I call it lots of different things. But I respect the request. If somebody calls me and respectfully asks me not to do it—I said, I respect that.
BW:
And then some of your people kind of were emboldened and went out saying some things about China which really made you worry about some sort of war, or something getting—
TRUMP:
No, no, not war. You know, I’ve seen a lot of tough people over the years. [BW laughs] And you know what? The toughest people aren’t the ones that do the talking.
BW:
Okay. This is—
TRUMP:
A lot of people talking, they talk tough, even people with me. They—
BW:
Who was talking tough that got you disturbed? You were concerned.
TRUMP:
Well, a number of people. I mean, people that are with me, 100 percent.
BW:
Like who?
TRUMP:
But I don’t want to—I don’t want to embarrass anybody, Bob. I don’t want to—Maybe I’ll tell you when we’re together.
BW:
Okay.
TRUMP:
We’ll do a get-together.
BW:
Okay. You see why I want to know that?
TRUMP:
But the toughest people—you’ve seen it as much as I have. You’re one of the few who can say it. I’ve seen a lot of tough people, but they’re usually not talkers.
BW:
This is what Jared’s point is. He also goes on to say—and this is so interesting. He’s helped me a great deal.
TRUMP:
Good.
BW:
He said, you are the first president to understand the real power of America.
TRUMP:
Mm-hmm.
BW:
And I thought, what is the real power of America? What is it?
TRUMP:
So the people that came before me, how they allowed China and other countries to take advantage of us was just shocking. For 25 years, we’ve been ripped off. You know we rebuilt China? And I give them all the credit in the world. But our presidents allowed it to happen. And how these guys, whether it’s Bush or Obama or any one of them—
BW:
And they own all of our—not all, but so many government bonds.
TRUMP:
Bob, we gave them the money. They don’t—what they own, I don’t care about that. We got all—we got such power. Because we have the dollar, and we can do what we want. We have the power. They don’t have—and a trillion dollars is nothing, now, to have a trillion dollars. We spent—
BW:
So what’s their—I know—
TRUMP:
We spent $3 trillion on this. So that’s not the problem.
BW:
So apparently President Xi in that call at the end of March suggested there’s a cause-and-effect relationship between the tone of U.S. statements and the degree of cooperation he will give. And so—
TRUMP:
Wait till you see—look, I am right now in the process—it’s a great chess match.
BW:
Yes, isn’t it?
TRUMP:
And we’re right now in the process of seeing. But over the next few weeks, we’re going to see. We’re going to see. And a lot of things are going to happen over the next few weeks, Bob, in a lot of different ways, not only with China. But we’re coming back. The country’s coming back. I’m also a cheerleader for the country. You know I have to be the leader, but I have to be the cheerleader, too. You know? You can’t have a deadhead. And we’re going to be very strong. And we’re coming back, and I think that you’re going to have a great third quarter. It’s a transition quarter. You know, we’re transitioning in. And I think the fourth quarter is going to be really, really good. And I think next year is going to be one of the best years we’ve ever had economically, you watch.
BW:
Do you feel that you’ve reached full mobilization yet? We talked about this a couple of times. And I think that’s critical, that people feel, ah, we’re fully mobilized. We’re committed.
TRUMP:
Yeah. Yeah.
BW:
Is that your—
TRUMP:
Yeah, it’s very important to—It’s very important. And plus, we have tremendous stimulus. And there’s a pent-up demand that’s incredible, Bob. There’s an incredible pent-up demand. You’re going to see. We’re going to transition. You understand. We’re transitioning now. But we’re going to transition in. In the fourth quarter, we’re going to start to see some decent numbers, and next year we’re going to have among the best numbers we’ve ever had, you watch.
BW:
Well, should that happen, you’ll win by acclimation.
TRUMP:
Well, I think there’ll be a little bit of fourth quarter in the election. You understand, because some of it won’t be finished yet.
BW:
Who was the first person and when—
TRUMP:
People are going to see it. If I can, if I get—just wipe out the plague—and people don’t expect total wipe—We’re going to have, I call them embers. We’re going to have little fires, and some bigger fires, and we’ll put them out. We learned a lot about that. But if I can knock out the plague, substantially, so that we handle it pretty routinely—and that will happen. And if we can start going up with the economy, I think Trump’s going to be very hard to beat.
BW:
For the serious history of this, coming out in the fall, how’s your relationship with Fauci?
TRUMP:
Very good. No problem. No problem.
BW:
Okay? He’s used—
TRUMP:
Everybody said—look, he’s a Democrat, but we have a good—you see that.
BW:
Yeah.
TRUMP:
If there was a problem, he’d know about it. So would you. No, no problem.
BW:
Okay. So who was the first person to tell you in January or February and alert you to, my God, this is the plague, this is going to be the big event of your presidency?
COMMENTARY: I was probing to see if he would bring up O’Brien and Pottinger’s January 28th early warning. Trump, however, made no reference to it.
TRUMP:
Well, you start seeing it, Bob. You don’t have to—you start seeing it. You see what’s going on and, think about it.
BW:
When did you see it first?
TRUMP:
Well, I’d say toward the end of January, if you think about it. Because I put the—I did something that nobody else thought was appropriate.
BW:
I know, about China.
TRUMP:
I put a ban on China coming into this country. Only people allowed in were the people that were citizens of our country, American citizens.
BW:
I understand that you knew—
TRUMP:
They went through a lot to come in, too. They had to go through quarantine, a lot of other things. But I did a ban at the end of January on China coming in.
BW:
I know. Listen, I know. And I understand—
TRUMP:
And Pelosi and Schumer and all these losers are talking at the end of February and March about how this whole thing is going to blow over. And by the way so was Anthony Fauci at the end of February. He’s saying it’s going to blow over. So you know, so.
BW:
Yes, I know. He said that publicly.
TRUMP:
So that’s, you know, that’s the end of that.
BW:
Did you ever talk to him about that? Said hey by the way on the ninth—
TRUMP:
He said to me, very specifically in front of a group of people, that President Trump saved hundreds of thousands of lives when he put a ban of China on the border. And let me tell you, I had a room of 20 or 21 people and everyone in that room except me did not want to have that ban.
BW:
Yeah. So I understand—
TRUMP:
Because it was too early.
BW:
—your new national security adviser, O’Brien—
TRUMP:
Right. Well—
BW:
—said to you on January 28, “Mr. President, this virus is going to be the biggest national security threat to your presidency.” Do you remember that?
TRUMP:
No. No.
BW:
You don’t?
TRUMP:
No, I don’t. No, I don’t. I’m sure if he said it—you know, I’m sure he said it. Nice guy.
COMMENTARY: He’s sure that O’Brien said it, but he doesn’t remember it? What a moment. I marveled at the clever, lawyerly dodge. What an amazing underhanded confirmation. It was a classic Trumpian evasion. Because O’Brien and Pottinger had been so specific and detailed, I was confident that the warning had been delivered. Now Trump at least had confirmed, “I’m sure he said it.”
TRUMP:
Look, on January 29th, or whatever, the end of January, I put a ban. I put a ban on. And the ban was very powerful, and China couldn’t come into our country. Then after that, a number of weeks later, I put a ban on Europe coming in. Nobody would’ve done those two. First time it’s ever been done.
BW:
Where’d you get the idea of putting the restrictions—
TRUMP:
And then Nancy Pelosi wanted people to go at the end of February and dance in the streets of San Francisco. China. Chinatown.
BW:
I know. Listen, in early—on January 3rd, there were people looking at this in the world of epidemiology and immunology. Some of the best scientists in the country. On January 3rd, and looked at it and said, my God, there are 44 cases, and they’ve got 121 quarantined and they say there’s no human spread. And they jumped out of their chairs and said, that can’t be. Of course there’s human spread.
TRUMP:
Mm-hmm.
BW:
And I’ve talked to these people. I said, why didn’t you call me? Why didn’t you call President Trump on January 3rd?
TRUMP:
Right. Right. Nobody called us, yeah.
BW:
Because they’re all in their own little cave.
TRUMP:
They never did. And—nobody did. No, when I put the ban on, I did that more from what I was seeing on television and reading in the newspapers. I was reading about China. And I said, wait a minute, we can’t have—and I was surprised at how many people come in from China. It’s a lot, when you add it up. So anyway. Hey, Bob, I have to go. I’ll talk to you soon.
BW:
Yes, sir. Good.
TRUMP:
Are my guys taking good care of you, then?
BW:
Couldn’t be better, and I thank you—
TRUMP:
The A-plus treatment. The guy is one of the greats, let’s give him the A-plus so let’s see if he can actually write a good book about somebody. Because I deserve it. So long. Take care. Say hello to your wife, too, Bob.
BW:
Thank you, sir, have a good evening. Bye.
TRUMP:
Okay? Thanks, Bob.
BW:
Bye.
TRUMP:
Thanks. Bye.
[Recording ends]
COMMENTARY: Now in my book I had to show the grand scale of Trump’s inaction and deceptions in the face of a serious and still mounting crisis. Fifty thousand lives lost would only be the beginning.