INTERVIEW 16: You Really Drank the Kool-Aid
Phone call
June 19, 2020
TRUMP:
You really drank the Kool-Aid, didn’t you? Just listen to you. Wow. No, I don’t feel that at all.
BW:
You don’t?
TRUMP:
I’ve done more for the Black community than any president in history with the possible exception of Lincoln.
COMMENTARY: Trump called me unexpectedly on Friday, June 19th, the day commemorating the end of slavery in the United States. We had not spoken for over two weeks, as I was working intensely to finish my book Rage.
TRUMP:
Hi, Bob.
BW:
How are you?
TRUMP:
How are you doing?
BW:
Well, I’m making progress. Trying to finish a first draft. I was going to try to call you tonight. I appreciate—
TRUMP:
Are my people being good and responsive, I hope?
BW:
Well, I’ve still run into some roadblocks.
TRUMP:
Where, Bob?
BW:
Well, I’m trying to get those transcripts of those calls, or some part of it—
TRUMP:
With President Xi?
BW:
Yes.
TRUMP:
Okay. Let me work on that. I will work on that. I’ll get them and I’ll talk to you about them, okay. I’ll figure it out.
COMMENTARY: One night, Trump’s Chief of Staff in the White House, Mark Meadows, called me at home and said I would never get those transcripts because the transcript of the Zelensky phone call had led to Trump’s first impeachment.
BW:
I appreciate it.
TRUMP:
I had very good calls with him, but since they sent us the plague I’m not so thrilled with them, okay?
BW:
Right. I know. You told me that. What do you think’s going on? I’ve talked to all kinds of people. And the Chinese are not only stonewalling still, but there’s some evidence that this is quite dark and nefarious. That they’re allowing the—allowed the virus to spread. What do you think? I’m turning on my recorder, if I may, sir.
TRUMP:
I’m the one that said that louder and clearer than anybody, if you want to know the truth.
BW:
Yes.
TRUMP:
I’m the leader of that group. Because I think they could have kept it—Now, it is starting up in Beijing, which is interesting. I don’t know if you’ve been seeing that over the last few days.
BW:
Yeah. Of course. Yes.
TRUMP:
So—
BW:
What are they up to? What’s their motive?
TRUMP:
Well, I think—I think they could have done a hell of a lot better job stopping it coming out to the rest of the world, including the United States and Europe.
BW:
Do you think they intentionally let it come to the United States and the rest of the world?
TRUMP:
There’s a possibility. I don’t say they did, but there’s certainly a possibility.
BW:
Well, you mean that—if they actually did this intentionally, President Trump—
TRUMP:
It’s definitely a possibility, Bob. You know, the ink wasn’t dry on my— You know, I did a great deal on trade. They’re buying a lot of stuff. And they’re—by the way, they are buying. And that’s one of the things I watch every day. They’re buying a lot. They’re buying tremendous amounts of farm product and stuff. But the ink wasn’t dry when the plague came in. And I’m not happy. But with everything being said, Bob, watch what happens, okay. Remember, I told you, the stock market is close to an all-time high and we’re not finished with the pandemic yet. I have a rally tomorrow night in Oklahoma—
BW:
I noticed.
TRUMP:
Over 1.2 million people have signed up. We can only take about 50, 60 thousand. Because, you know, it’s a big arena, right? But we can take 22,000 in one arena, 40,000 in another. We’re gonna have two arenas loaded. But think of that. Nobody ever had rallies like that.
BW:
Okay, I understand that. Now, I really want to spend a moment and dig as deeply—
TRUMP:
Okay.
BW:
Because this book is designed to understand you deeply—
TRUMP:
Good.
BW:
Your reaction to the protests. And, you know, I’ve seen what you’ve said and so forth.
TRUMP:
I think—Yeah, I can give you my reaction. I think that the weak liberal Democrats have handled their cities very badly. And I think the strong people have handled it very well. You’ll see what happens in Oklahoma.
BW:
Let me ask you this. I mean we share one thing in common. We’re white, privileged, who—my father was a lawyer and a judge in Illinois. And we know what your dad did. And do you have any sense that that privilege has isolated and put you in a cave, to a certain extent, as it put me—and I think lots of white, privileged people—in a cave? And that we have to work our way out of it to understand the anger and the pain, particularly, Black people feel in this country? Do you see—
TRUMP:
No. You really drank the Kool-Aid, didn’t you? Just listen to you. Wow. No, I don’t feel that at all.
BW:
You don’t?
TRUMP:
I’ve done more for the Black community than any president in history with the possible exception of Lincoln. And I say possible—you know why I say possible. Because I’m not sure that Lincoln started off the way it finished. In other words, you know, there are those who say he didn’t have the slaves in mind when the Civil War started. You understand.
BW:
Okay. But I don’t think it’s the Kool-Aid, Mr. President, I think there is a reality out there that Black people feel. And part of our job is—I mean, you and I talked about this some months ago, that you’re governing in an environment where there are two Americas.
TRUMP:
Yep.
BW:
Remember that?
TRUMP:
And by the way, Bob, it’s been that way for a long time. A lot longer than when I’ve been here. It’s been that way under Obama, and it’s been that way a long time. There was great division under Obama.
BW:
Sure. But, you know, we talked about this.
TRUMP:
The silent—It was a much more silent division, but there was tremendous hatred and tremendous division, more than there is now.
BW:
You’re convinced of that?
TRUMP:
Yeah.
BW:
And we talked about history’s clock, remember that? And I said my analysis was that you came and seized history’s clock when you were elected. And that the Democrats and your party, the Republicans, did not know what was going on in America. Remember that? Agree with that?
TRUMP:
Sure, I do. I do.
BW:
And that—
TRUMP:
It’s still true. It’s still true about, you know, the Democrats and many people in the Republican Party.
BW:
Okay, understand—
TRUMP:
But I know what’s going on. I know what’s going on.
BW:
Okay. The question is, there’s been a shift. And it’s substantial. And it’s, I think, incumbent on white, privileged people like myself, like you, to say—and I don’t think this is Kool-Aid. I think it is understanding points of view that may not come to us naturally.
TRUMP:
But I don’t have to be there to understand a point of view.
BW:
Okay.
TRUMP:
I don’t have to be Black to understand the Black point of view.
BW:
Right. But you—
TRUMP:
I don’t have to have gone through personal slavery in order to understand the horrible atrocity that—that people have suffered. I don’t have to. You know, I don’t have to put myself in that position. I can fully understand it without being in that position.
BW:
Oh, no, exactly. But do you consider it an atrocity, do you consider—
TRUMP:
Oh, absolutely. Slavery? Absolutely.
BW:
And what’s happened after, up to this day, that we do not have a system of equality and equal opportunity?
TRUMP:
[exhales] Well—
BW:
I’m pushing.
TRUMP:
It’s been going on for a hundred years, Bob.
BW:
Sure, but—
TRUMP:
It’s been going on for a hundred years, plus.
BW:
Okay. You see what I’m asking.
TRUMP:
I fully do. No, it’s very fair. It’s been going on for a hundred years plus. It’s been going on for a long time. And we’ve made a lot of progress in a lot of different ways. And a lot of progress is being made as we speak. I mean right now. More than you would even think. But this has been going on for many, many years. Many, many years.
BW:
And is not your—we’ve talked about this—your job is to bring people together?
TRUMP:
I agree. But before I can bring them together, sometimes you have to bring them to a point. You have to bring them to a point. And we’re getting close to it. We’ve made a lot of progress in the last short period of time.
BW:
Let me—
TRUMP:
Don’t forget. Until the Chinese plague came in, we had the lowest unemployment in the history of this country for African Americans. We had the lowest unemployment numbers by far, African American. We had the lowest for Asian, Hispanic, too. But we had the best employment numbers in the history of our country. And then we got hit with the plague. Now here’s what’s happening.
COMMENTARY: Black unemployment had been steadily decreasing for nine years, since 2011. When Trump became president, he also inherited a growing economy from Obama.
TRUMP:
I’m building up the economy, Bob. And the economy is—Remember, I told you you’re gonna have a V-shape? You don’t have a V-shape, you might have an I-shape. “I” is almost—Look at the job numbers, look at the retail sales numbers. Look at these numbers that are coming in. Wait till you see the third quarter, how good it’s gonna be, when your book comes out.
BW:
Okay, you’ve been saying that to me. And the question is—
TRUMP:
Well, it’s been true. It’s been true, Bob. Look at the numbers. We had the highest employment numbers in history two weeks ago. We had the best retail sales numbers increase in history two days ago. In history, Bob.
COMMENTARY: Millions of jobs were added in May and June [of 2020], undoubtedly good news but not historic. More than 22 million jobs had been lost in March and April alone.
BW:
Okay, but this—
TRUMP:
Wait till you see the numbers come in.
BW:
For people out there struggling, for people—
TRUMP:
Yeah, but they won’t be struggling for long, Bob. They’re struggling because we had to turn it off. Because if I didn’t turn it off, we would have lost 3 million lives instead of 150,000, or whatever the final number will be. But it will be in that vicinity. We would have lost 3 million lives. And you know what? That’s not acceptable, 3 million lives.
COMMENTARY: But two years later, in May 2022, the reported death toll from COVID-19 in the United States was more than one million people.
BW:
Let me ask this question, please. Bear with me on this, because I think it’s one of the pillars of trying to understand. And if I’m a Black man out there, how am I going to say to myself, ah, President Trump understands my plight, my pain, and he is—the numbers, yes. I understand the work on the economy.
TRUMP:
Wait till you see by the third quarter, by the time your book—well, I don’t know when your book is coming out. But by the election, we will have some of the greatest numbers ever released by any country. And it’s already happening, Bob. Now, unless some crazy thing happens.
BW:
But do you think that the person out there wants the president to understand how they feel?
TRUMP:
I do, Bob. Let me just tell you, I passed criminal justice reform. Obama couldn’t get it done—
BW:
Listen, I understand this.
TRUMP:
I passed opportunity zones. Obama and all these people that came before me, not only Obama, couldn’t get it done. Nobody could get done what I got done. I got prison reform done. I got criminal justice reform done. I got—forget all about the good economic numbers, which will be just as good in a very short—because I turned it off and now I turned it back on.
BW:
Okay, I understand. Have you won the hearts of minorities and Black people in this country who feel pain and anguish and are angry? Have you won their hearts? That’s my question.
TRUMP:
Okay, you ready? Yes. I did, prior to the plague coming in. But now a lot of those jobs that were, were won—the Black people had the lowest unemployment numbers in history!
BW:
Okay, but they’re, if you’re—
TRUMP:
They had the best jobs! They were making more money than they ever made!
BW:
Okay, but half the people—
TRUMP:
Have you—
BW:
Half the Black people—
TRUMP:
Yes, but you saw some of my polls with Black—with Black people.
BW:
Okay, but let me ask this, sir. Because I want to understand. Half the Black people now, right on this day in June 2020, are unemployed. And you look at the polls, you look at the protests, and you talk to people—
TRUMP:
They’ll be employed very soon, Bob.
BW:
And they’re—
TRUMP:
It’s all coming back. They’re going to be employed. Okay—
BW:
Okay, but you—
TRUMP:
Before the plague, they had the best numbers ever. Everybody was doing great. They were getting tremendous increases. They were making more money and people were happy. When the plague came in from China, then a lot of people lost jobs. Those jobs are all coming back. Black people will all be employed very soon, just like they were before. And the numbers will even be better.
BW:
Okay. But as you know and as you’ve said, the murder of George Floyd triggered something in people. Not just Black people, minorities, but in white people—who are saying, you know, like I’m trying to say, I think I’ve been a privileged white person. I know you have been, right? [Three-second pause] No?
TRUMP:
I don’t—I don’t get into that argument. I’ve done a good job for Black people. I’ve done the best job of any president since Lincoln.
BW:
Okay.
TRUMP:
Other than Lincoln.
BW:
Now, here’s the other question.
TRUMP:
I don’t get into that. You know, there’s no point to getting into it. All I can do is what I’m doing. I have done the best job of any president of the United States history, other than Abraham Lincoln, for Black people. I got criminal justice reform; I got Black colleges and universities.
BW:
Okay. Have you won their hearts? Because this is a business of the heart. I think—
TRUMP:
I’ll let you know that at the end of my term when they get their jobs back. Okay? And it’s gonna be before—it’ll be before, by the end of the year you’re gonna see numbers like nobody’s ever seen before. And it’s already happened, Bob. Two days ago, you had the greatest retail sales numbers in history, Bob.
COMMENTARY: He seemed not to understand racial inequality went way beyond job numbers.
BW:
Okay, listen, I understand this. But some of this, part of this—
TRUMP:
And that will all make a “V.” Remember I told you a “V” and you disputed it? You were disputing it. And 90 percent of the people were disputing it, right? Now, now, they’re all saying Trump was right. It’s beyond a “V.” In fact, the market’s up today almost 200 points. We’re ready to set a record on the stock market, and the pandemic is ending, it’s weaving its way out—and by the way, we’re going to have a vaccine soon and we’re going to have therapeutics soon. Hey, Bob, could I call you later so I can get to these generals to make sure everything’s good?
BW:
Okay, that’s great. That’s—I really want to push, and I need to talk—
TRUMP:
I don’t mind.
BW:
I need to talk—
TRUMP:
I don’t mind. You’re a good man, I hope you’re truthful. If you’re truthful, you’re going to write a great book. And if you’re not truthful, you’re gonna hit me.
BW:
I—
TRUMP:
Bye, my man, I’ll talk to you later.
BW:
Okay, thank you, sir.
TRUMP:
Very good. Absolutely.
BW:
Bye.
TRUMP:
Thanks, Bob. Say hello to your wife. Bye.
[Recording ends]
COMMENTARY: I called him again that night. He did not call back. I wondered if that might be the last conversation we’d have. He had said, “The pandemic is ending; it’s weaving its way out.” That day, COVID-19 cases were rising in 23 states with 10 seeing their highest single day increase.
Senator Lindsey Graham had told Trump, “Right now if the election was held, you would lose.”