INTERVIEW 18: I’m Not Feeling Any Love

Phone call

July 8, 2020

TRUMP:

I have done a tremendous amount for the Black community. And, honestly, I’m not feeling any love.

COMMENTARY: Trump called me unexpectedly on Wednesday, July 8th, before his day of meetings with Mexican President Obrador. My goal was now exclusively to finish with small edits and additions to the book in order to get it published before the presidential election on November 3rd.

TRUMP:

I’m so busy, Bob, I don’t have time to breathe. What’s up, Bob?

BW:

Okay. I wanted to kind of get an overview of everything that, you know, has been going on—

TRUMP:

Okay. I just got some very good poll numbers, I will say that.

BW:

People have—and I’m turning my recorder on for our history, here.

TRUMP:

Okay.

BW:

This will be our 17th conversation—

TRUMP:

Wow.

BW:

For this book.

TRUMP:

Wow.

BW:

And that’s a lot. I’ve taken a lot of your time.

TRUMP:

Yeah, well. All I ask for is fairness. And, you know, I’m sure I won’t get it, but that’s okay.

BW:

Well, you’ll, you’ll—

TRUMP:

I’m used to that. But I do ask for fairness because nobody’s done what I’ve done. Nobody.

BW:

Well—

TRUMP:

Did you get the new list of new things that were added on?

BW:

Yeah. I’ve seen all of this. You know, here’s what I think the big issue in the campaign is going to be. And that is, what are you trying to do? I look at those two speeches—the Mount Rushmore speech.

TRUMP:

Right.

BW:

The speech on the South Lawn, there. The White House, over, right after the Fourth of July or on the Fourth of July.

Excerpts from President Trump’s speech at Mount Rushmore on July 4th, 2020:

TRUMP:

Our nation is witnessing a merciless campaign to wipe out our history, defame our heroes, erase our values, and indoctrinate…

TRUMP:

There is a new far-left fascism that demands absolute allegiance.…

TRUMP:

We are now in the process of defeating the radical left, the Marxists, the anarchists, the agitators, the looters, and people who in many instances have absolutely no clue what they are doing.

Both speeches painted divisive portraits of some citizens threatening the country—a kind of reemergence in tone of “American carnage” from Trump’s inaugural address.

BW:

What are you trying to say to people with these speeches? Because—

TRUMP:

Well, what I’m trying to do—and they were very well reviewed, as you probably have heard. What I’m trying to do is two things. I’m trying to show where we’re going and where we were. Where we were as a country, how we were formed. How we developed as a country. Because I think the past is a very important element as to the future. I really believe strongly in history.

BW:

Sure.

TRUMP:

And in culture. And I believe that the past—you have your tape on, Bob, I hope, yes? You have your tape on, tape recorder?

BW:

Yes, I’ve got the tape recorder on.

TRUMP:

Good.

BW:

And, but the question is I think the Mount Rushmore—

TRUMP:

No, but I think the past is a very important. I think it’s very important that we not forget our past. And that was a lot of the speech. And what I’m doing is we’re building an economy that’s going very rapidly, Bob. You’re going to be surprised.

BW:

Okay, I’m waiting, as is the world. And in the Mount Rushmore speech you talk about a new far-left fascism.

TRUMP:

Yes.

BW:

And, you know, I’ve done a lot of reporting, President Trump, on this. And there’s some people who represent that kind of anger, the radical left. But it’s not much. It’s not—

TRUMP:

I call them anarchists.

BW:

Yes, I know. And Marxists. You know, if you talk to the experts, there are no Marxists left.

TRUMP

Well, no that’s wrong, Bob. Black Lives Matter, what they do is they literally have it in their website that they’re Marxists. I mean, they put it down. If you look at their original statements. And they haven’t changed.

COMMENTARY: As noted, the original founder of the grassroots Black Lives Matter group described herself and another founder as Marxists back in 2015. Since then, the group has become a national movement and their website as of this recording does not contain any mention of Marxism. The New York Times reported in July of 2020 that 15 to 26 million people in the United States participated in George Floyd protests.

BW:

But, you know, look the—

TRUMP:

No, but they literally called them Marxists, you know, Bob.

BW:

Okay. I’m trying to get a 30,000-foot perspective on this.

TRUMP:

Okay.

BW:

That, what are you saying to people? For instance, in the second speech you said, “our movement,” referring to your movement and your base. And, you know, we never forget, we are one family and one nation.

TRUMP:

Right.

BW:

Okay. People—Black Lives Matter people—look at all of this and they say they’re not being invited in. That you’ve put up a wall around your base, and they’re looking at this—and I think somebody objectively, as I’m trying to do, can look at it and say, now, wait a minute. We’re not opening the gate to everyone. And that’s my reading of it. And the question is, what’s your intent?

TRUMP:

Let me just say—Look, I have done more for the Black community than any other president other than Abraham Lincoln.

BW:

And Lyndon Johnson.

TRUMP:

I say more than Lyndon Johnson.

BW:

Well—

TRUMP:

Okay. I got criminal justice reform.

BW:

Right.

TRUMP:

I did prison reform. I did historically Black colleges and universities, okay, which nobody—I got full funding for a 10-year period. Nobody was able to do that. Nobody.

BW:

Okay. But as you and I have talked about over the months—

TRUMP:

No, no. These are big things, Bob. These are things—

BW:

Yes. No, but it’s about the heart.

TRUMP:

Nobody. Obama—Obama never even tried.

COMMENTARY: Trump is overstating what he had accomplished. President Johnson had extensive voting rights legislation and a historic war on poverty. The Obama administration had many criminal justice reforms.

TRUMP:

Criminal justice reform, Bob, nobody could believe it. I mean this guy, Van Jones, came into my office. He was crying. He was crying. He couldn’t believe it happened.

BW:

Okay, but that’s—

TRUMP:

A week later he goes and bad-mouths me.

COMMENTARY: Van Jones is an American lawyer, CNN political commentator, and progressive activist.

BW:

We’ve talked about this.

TRUMP:

Okay.

BW:

And it’s a question—

TRUMP:

No, but Bob, you can’t forget that, because when you talk about—

BW:

Of course not. But it doesn’t define—

TRUMP:

I have done, I have done a tremendous amount for the Black community. And, honestly, I’m not feeling any love. Because I was doing very well in the polls. As soon as the China virus came in—as soon as the plague, China virus, came in—as soon as it came in—those poll numbers all of a sudden started inching back to where I started, which is eight or nine or ten percent. And I don’t understand that. I don’t. Because nobody blames me for the virus.

BW:

Okay, because it’s a question—we’ve talked about this, sir. I’m sorry to press, but I want to ask these questions. It’s a matter of the heart and the spirit. Are you saying to people who are, you know, Black Lives Matter, who are minorities in this country, you are welcome here? You and I have talked about—we’ve had some serious conversations about what the job of the president is. And I said to you after doing this for almost 50 years, my definition, the job of the president is to figure out what the next stage of good is for a majority of people in the country. A real majority, not a party. Not interest groups. Not a base. Figure out what that is. And then execute a plan to do—And you agreed. You said, I agree, that’s exactly right.

TRUMP:

Sure.

BW:

And the question is, are people—do they feel you’re opening up and saying, come on into my leadership, my values, what I care about? And, as you know, people vote their own interests.

TRUMP:

Yeah.

BW:

What are my interests in being for Trump? And too much feeling out there that the door’s not wide open. And that’s the question.

COMMENTARY: His speech about “far-left fascism” and “the Marxists, the anarchists, the agitators, the looters” was probably the most divisive July Fourth speech ever given by a U.S. president.

BW:

[crosstalk] Is it really—

TRUMP:

Okay. I got it. The door is very wide open. I want to include all people. I want to include all Americans. The door is absolutely open. And that’s why I did criminal justice reform and prison reform. That’s why I did opportunity zones. That’s why I did all of this. It would have been a lot easier not to do anything. It would have been much easier for me, Bob. Really.

BW:

Okay, yes. But—

TRUMP:

Very tough getting it done. Obama couldn’t get it done. Bush couldn’t get it done. Nobody could get it done.

BW:

Okay. You keep—

TRUMP:

I’m the only one who could get it done. And I got it done.

BW:

You keep talking about that. And the question is—

TRUMP:

They are the biggest achievements made for the Black community since—in 100 years.

COMMENTARY: The pandemic had disproportionately impacted Black communities where there were higher rates of death, hospitalization, and job loss from the coronavirus.

TRUMP:

Criminal justice reform was an impossibility to get done and I got it done. Nobody else but me.

BW:

Okay. So, what’s your goal here?

TRUMP:

My goal is to do a great job as president, to keep our country strong, to have a great economy so that everybody can have a great job—as I was doing until the plague hit us. And now we’re doing it again. Hey, Bob. We just had the greatest job number in the history of our country. New jobs.

BW:

I know, I understand that.

TRUMP:

Five million. That’s a big thing.

BW:

And let’s hope it comes back. I think—

TRUMP:

It will, it will.

BW:

That would be—

TRUMP:

You’ll do a third book in the next year.

BW:

Well—

TRUMP:

Next year’s gonna be a fantastic year. Watch.

BW:

As you know, the virus is on fire. Absolutely on fire.

TRUMP:

Bob, it’s only on fire because of our testing. Because we’re testing 40 million people. The deaths are at a tenfold—

BW:

Well, as you know—

TRUMP:

Did you see the death rate?

BW:

Yes, I know. And it—

TRUMP:

No, but Bob, the death rate, which is the important word, is down tenfold. Ten. Fold.

BW:

Yes, and you heard what Fauci said about this. Said that’s a false narrative.

COMMENTARY: Dr. Fauci and other medical experts said this was not true and certainly was not grounds for optimism since coronavirus infections were surging.

TRUMP:

I closed the borders to China. I put a ban on China in January.

BW:

No, I know that. I know that.

TRUMP:

Fauci also said you don’t have to wear a mask.

BW:

The question is, where are we now?

TRUMP:

We’re in great shape. Most of the country is headed absolutely away from the virus. We’re totally set with our hospitals. We’re tenfold lower. And I use that because I got it from, I think, The Wall Street Journal or one of them. They used the word tenfold, and that’s what the number is. We have a tenfold reduction of death. The reason we have so many cases is because we’re testing 40 million people.

BW:

Well, as you know, that’s under dispute.

TRUMP:

If we tested half the number of people, we would have half the number of cases. No other country tests all these people.

BW:

Okay, but it’s on fire, sir. Look at the numbers. Look at what the governors of the states in Texas and Florida—

TRUMP:

No, it’s all fine—And you’re building immunity at the same time, Bob. And very few people are dying.

BW:

But also, it’s in young people who can be asymptomatic, as you know.

TRUMP:

I know, but they say when it’s in young people and they’re asymptomatic, which it is, they don’t transfer it. It’s not transferrable.

COMMENTARY: That’s not true. People of any age who are asymptomatic, that is infected but not showing symptoms, can still carry and infect others with COVID-19.

BW:

Let me take you to this. Because I think it’s important to understanding the moment. You say we’re in great shape. I think, looking at it, I’m not wearing any hat in this, President Trump.

TRUMP:

I understand.

BW:

I am not.

TRUMP:

I understand.

BW:

You know, the death rate is part of it. But the number of cases is, what, 57,000? That’s almost double—

TRUMP:

Bob. Bob, are you ready?

BW:

I’m ready.

TRUMP:

Germany doesn’t test unless somebody is sick. Because we did 40 million people, anybody that has the sniffles—any kid that has a little bit of a cold, they test positive. And it’s gonna go away in two days. It’s frankly, it’s ridiculous.

COMMENTARY: The virus was not going away. On July 8th there were 64,775 new coronavirus cases in the United States, and the daily death toll was 1,089.

BW:

Okay where’s that inform—where are you get—what medical—

TRUMP:

It’s all over the place.

BW:

Okay. Let’s move beyond testing.

TRUMP:

We’re the only one that does it.

BW:

If you called Tony Fauci in and sat him down in the Oval Office—

TRUMP:

He couldn’t win that argument with me.

BW:

Pardon?

TRUMP:

He cannot win that argument.

BW:

Well, but, you know he’s only done it for about 40 years.

TRUMP:

He was wrong on the China ban. I was right.

BW:

Yeah, well, we know there’s a—

TRUMP:

And I was the only one that said we have to ban them.

BW:

Look, there’s a—I’ve talked to—

TRUMP:

We’d have hundreds of thousands of more people dead right now. And let me tell you, Bob, if I went the herd, like they’re doing in Brazil and like they did in Sweden, which didn’t work, and other places, we would have had three million dead instead of 130,000 as of today. And that will go up somewhat. But we are getting toward the end.

BW:

Okay.

TRUMP:

But we would have had three million people. From two to three million people.

BW:

There’s a lot of disputed facts. Like on the China restrictions, I’ve talked to six people who were at that meeting, and Fauci was for it. For the restrictions.

TRUMP:

No, no.

BW:

And you and I have talked about—

TRUMP:

No, he was against it. And it’s been written very well he was against it.

BW:

No, sir.

TRUMP:

He was against it for a month, and then after that he said, you made the right decision.

BW:

Yeah, well, he said at that meeting and, as you know—

TRUMP:

You know why? Because he believed in the World Health Organization that I terminated because they’re just a puppet of China and saved $500 million a year.

BW:

Okay, but as you know it was Matt Pottinger who was the—had the expertise, who’d been in China, who realized what liars they were about things like this. Who, as I understand it, said you’ve got to restrict travel—people coming from China. And you did that. There’s no question about you did it.

TRUMP:

What, you mean Pottinger built up—he, Pottinger must have told you that himself, right? Yeah.

BW:

Well, no, somebody else involved in—is that true?

TRUMP:

No, not that I remember. I just felt I was given a set of facts, and I was the only one in the room that agreed, that felt that we should close the border.

BW:

Okay.

TRUMP:

I was the only one, Bob.

COMMENTARY: President Trump keeps repeating this, though I knew from firsthand participants in meeting notes that this was untrue.

TRUMP:

Now—

BW:

Okay.

TRUMP:

Maybe Pottinger told me something—I don’t know. But I certainly don’t remember. It’s nice that he tells you he did, but I don’t remember it. But maybe he did, who knows. It didn’t matter. I made the decision.

BW:

You did. I agree.

TRUMP:

I think all people, including Fauci, were against it. I made the decision. By making that decision, I saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Hundreds of thousands of lives.

BW:

And the Europe decision and the 15—

TRUMP:

And the Europe decision came shortly thereafter. And that was because I saw what was happening in Italy, especially.

BW:

Yeah, I know.

TRUMP:

I said, we have to close Europe. And I saved hundreds of thousands of lives by doing that.

BW:

And, you know, a lot of people—

TRUMP:

Most of our country now is in good shape, Bob. Not in bad shape. Like, you’re hearing about Florida, which flared up, and other—

BW:

See, what we’re—

TRUMP:

But the flare-up is much different than it was three months ago.

BW:

Yeah. Yeah. I—Look, as a citizen, somebody who lives here, I’m worried as I can be about this whole thing.

TRUMP:

Don’t worry about it, Bob. Okay? Don’t worry about it.

BW:

Now I want to—but, let me—

TRUMP:

If we get to do another book together, you’ll find out I was right. Bob, I have the President of Mexico, Obrador. He’s literally waiting for me outside. I got to go.

BW:

Okay, good.

TRUMP:

I got to go. I consider you to be very important. But he is literally standing at the door saying please, sir.

BW:

Okay, can we talk later tonight then?

TRUMP:

Yeah, maybe later tonight. If I can, I will.

BW:

Okay, thanks, sir.

TRUMP:

Actually I enjoy talking to you. Thanks, Bob.

BW:

Bye.

TRUMP:

Bye.

[Recording ends]

COMMENTARY: Five days later, July 13th, I interviewed Jared Kushner, the president’s son-in-law. His voice sounded hoarse.

“What I’ve learned in the world of Trump is news cycles don’t last very long. Sentiment changes.”

In relation to the virus, Kushner said:

“He’s had a string of kind of bad luck.”

Biden continued to lead Trump in the polls by double digits.

“Biden’s had about as good a couple months as he could get, you know, being hidden.”

Due to COVID, Biden had not traveled much to campaign and had not held public events that would put people at risk.

Kushner said Biden’s reliance on Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren’s liberal ideas amounted to “a long political suicide note.”

On Trump, Kushner said:

“The goal is to get his head from governing to campaigning.”

I was incredulous. In the midst of the largest public health crisis in a century, Kushner thought it was time to turn to campaigning?

“So the goal is to get him back to offense.”

The offense soon appeared. Trump and the White House launched a public attack to discredit Dr. Fauci and to discredit Joe Biden.

Trump then fired his campaign manager Brad Parscale, who he blamed for the poor turnout at the rally in Tulsa.