Straight Edge, Anarcho-Primitivism, and the Collapse
Image 24.1: Andy Hurley, Milwaukee, 2008 Mac self-portrait
Andy Hurley, known as a vegan straight edge anarcho-primitivist, has been a drummer for various punk bands, including Racetraitor (1995-99), Killtheslavemaster (1996 to present), and Fall Out Boy (2001 to present). He lives with four of his best friends in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
Well, I was into punk rock as a kid, and Rage Against the Machine had a huge impact on me. Evil Empire had all those books on the cover, and I tracked down every single one of them. I didn’t read them all, and in hindsight I’m probably happy because a lot of them are about things that I’m not into anymore. But I read a bunch, and that set me on my path to be politicized. Other influences were Public Enemy and Paris. At the time, I didn’t get into that stuff because it was political, I didn’t know that then. But I think getting into the music so young and then realizing what they were talking about definitely opened me up more to ideas that weren’t so prevalent in the white suburbs I grew up in. So this was kind of the first phase.
Then, fast-forwarding a few years, I joined Racetraitor. That was the second phase. That was the kind of sharpening of my political life, I would say. The other guys in the band were much older and much more politicized, and they had also been doing a lot more activism. So joining that band I started doing stuff with the National People’s Democratic Uhuru Movement and different kinds of socialist-communist groups like that.
I definitely think so, yes, for a lot of reasons. There were a lot of things that were unique. I mean, even on a very basic level, having a dude who was Iranian shook things up; even though he was from the suburbs too, but still. And then just the whole approach, like getting the audience engaged in all these discussions. The first time I ever saw Racetraitor—so this is before I joined the band—90 percent of the show was them arguing with people. As a result, we definitely didn’t fully fit in anywhere. Definitely not with Earth Crisis and all the vegan straight edge bands from that scene. But not with Punk Planet or Maximumrocknroll either—though we were on the covers of both, I think.
Again, I believe what really set Racetraitor apart was the nature of the shows and just how argumentative they were. Obviously this was a tactic to make people think. I mean, if people are talking, at least they’re talking, you know? And it certainly helped my politics too. If you argue, you get better at understanding what it is that you are arguing.
I think by the end of it we started to fit in a little more. We definitely felt connected to bands like Extinction ‘cause they were from Chicago, and we sort of came up with them and were friends. And in hindsight there were other bands too. But we didn’t feel very connected to any scene for quite some time.
No, the name came from Dan Binaei whose family is from the South. One time he had this discussion with some folks about what he was into, and someone said, “So, you’re one of those racetraitors?” And Dan kinda took that name like the early straight edge kids took the X’s on their hands: he was like, “Ya, I’m a racetraitor, and I’m proud of it!”
Yes. Even though I forgot to mention Earth Crisis. They were definitely a big influence too. Firstly for veganism, but also for a more political understanding of straight edge.
No, I became straight edge around that time—like, when I was fifteen. Before that I drank and smoked pot. But I knew straight edge from a lot of rad bands, like Youth of Today, and Bold, and Gorilla Biscuits—those were all bands that I listened to and liked. Straight edge made sense to me, also with the situation at home, like how me smoking pot was affecting my mom, but I didn’t know anyone who was straight edge and it all remained a bit distant to me.
But then Earth Crisis came along, and they made it so much cooler. To begin with, they were the heaviest hardcore band I had ever heard. And they made the whole thing just so much more political. It felt like the approach that Rage Against the Machine had too: they were explaining their beliefs. That just spoke to me a lot. So that was probably the biggest reason why I became straight edge—and definitely vegan.
I would say that this would be like the third phase. It was when I quit Racetraitor to do more Killtheslavemaster ‘cause they were starting to play more shows and such. My anarcho-primitivist leanings come from that time, because early on we read Ishmael, the Daniel Quinn book, and that was how I got started on the anti-civ [anti-civilization] politics. I think that was even before the big wave of Ishmael-inspired hardcore, so before Undying and bands like that. Eventually, there was a kind of split in the scene, where a lot of the Milwaukee kids, including me, got into the anti-civ stuff, and a lot of the Chicago kids, including some of the Racetraitor dudes, remained dedicated to what they had already been doing, like human rights, anti-racism, anti-imperialism, anti-colonialism.
I still believe in all that too, but I got more and more into anti-civ. From Ishmael I went to Derrick Jensen ‘cause he’s sort of the next step. I really liked him ‘cause his stuff was kind of a melding of anti-civ, Ishmael type ideas with the theories of the likes of Howard Zinn and anti-imperialist, anti-colonialist stuff. Then I went to John Zerzan, and now I’m really good friends with Kevin Tucker. I think he is one of the biggest thinkers and speakers in anarcho-primitivism. It’s kind of funny too, because I knew about Species Traitor, Kevin’s zine, even when I was in Racetraitor, and now it’s become this thing that I’m really into.
Overall I would tend to agree more with Zerzan. I’m also really into the anthropological aspect, which seems to be more important to Zerzan and Tucker than to Jensen. But I already said how important it is to have dudes like Jensen and books like Ishmael because these are such good starting points for people who are new to all these things. I also think that it is really important to have guys who can kinda bridge the gap.
But, ultimately, I think the Zerzan school, or more so even the Tucker school, is really central. I agree with their anti-leftist critique. All those things are part of civilization, obviously: communism or socialism aren’t at all dealing with what the problem is.
That’s a really difficult issue. It’s certainly not that I’m totally opposed to these things. I mean, as a dude who came from a lot of human rights stuff with Racetraitor, I definitely still care about that struggle. It’s important to ease suffering. Besides, I’m against oppression, and that means oppression on all fronts. And I do believe in justice. Since civilization is not gonna end tomorrow, it’s important to fight all these fights, and that goes for each stage of the struggle. I think in the end it’s all a matter of perception, perspective, and relevance.
For example, I just saw Che, the movie about Che Guevara, and I really got excited for the dude who came from a wealthy background and was a doctor and went on this trip and was like, “Fuck, I need to do something!” And, you know, I think for the time he did a lot of awesome things. The problem is that in the end there was still an authoritarian system that was set up, and people are still being ground under it, and there is still industry, and people are still working, and all the alienating aspects of abstract culture and symbolic thought are still there—all those things that Zerzan would talk about and I definitely agree with him. But it is really inspiring that there was this guy who was just a regular guy, and then he did something and it actually worked, and it changed the world. I think this is something that anyone with radical ideas, including anarcho-primitivists, can relate too.
That’s the thing that’s so hard to say. I mean, in general I agree with that. Fixing a lot within the system helps to sustain it. The worse things get, the readier people become to hear and to learn and to change things. At the same time, people are being oppressed and I’m against oppression. I think this is a really hard question, and I think it’s really hard to give a definitive answer. Luckily, I’m no spokesperson for anarcho-primitivism and don’t claim to have the gospel truth.
I do believe the following though: ultimately, people need to see that, no matter what happens, no matter how much you change about the health care system or workers’ rights, it’s the fact that we are working, it’s the fact that there are hierarchical systems in place, it’s the fact that you have to appeal to people in charge, that’s what’s fucked! The whole system is fucked from the get-go. We shouldn’t even have to worry about that stuff when there is a way of life that humans have lived for millions of years where none of this was a problem, where there was no division of labor, no hierarchy, none of the things that we have now.
Oh, I totally understand that. I totally understand that there are situations and contexts that people are living in where they don’t have the luxury of thinking about things like that; where it’s really abstract and doesn’t apply to their situation. However, when we really wanna speak about the ultimate causes of what’s wrong with the world, I don’t think there is any way around anarcho-primitivism. These causes aren’t based on class or race or some specific situation that you are in. But, as I said before, I understand that people need to be doing certain things in these specific situations. People are working, people are suffering, and things need to be changed on all levels.
Ultimately, though, I think civilization needs to come down one way or another. And hopefully it will happen sooner than later because the loss of life will be more the longer we wait. And I think that’s really the crucial thing: continuing to eek out civilization’s existence is only gonna kill more life: human and otherwise.
Yes, I totally understand that too. However, obviously the ideology or philosophy of anarcho-primitivism is not calling for the mass murder of anyone. But the reality of the situation is that the earth can’t support this many people, only civilization can. And this civilization will come down some day, just as every civilization has in history. The explosion of population stems from the advent of civilization, particularly industrial civilization. The population explosion that the latter caused was just insane. Civilization is not sustainable and it will end—whether we will end it ourselves, or whether the myriad things we are doing to the earth will destroy it, something will happen and it’s all gonna be over, and a lot of people will die.
I would say all of those things. First, I definitely agree with Tucker, and I’ve been trying to learn as many wilderness skills as I can. I think that’s important for anyone, no matter what, because we are humans, and these are the skills we’re actually supposed to be learning as opposed to math and science. Besides, I think it’s something that’s cool and fun and really satisfying at a deep level. To have that kind of skill-set leaves you feeling something more. So I do think that’s crucial. But I also think that it’s crucial to bring about the collapse as soon as possible, because, as I said, every day is—how many?—200, 300, 400 species of life lost? How much longer can the planet afford this in its well-being?
As for how to do that, I can’t really say. A lot of the means available are not really open to me because I’m in a public position where it’d be pretty stupid to get engaged in them or to have connections and networks like that. It would be dangerous and compromising. But there’s a lot of information out there, and there are a lot of groups that are doing good things. ALF and ELF are the obvious, and there are others.
I think that armed struggle is an important facet of how change needs to happen. Going back to Che, one of the things I find most inspiring are his theories about armed struggle. Now I don’t think that the political ramifications of what Che did were for the best, but I can really relate to the reason behind it: like, when he was asked about the meaning of armed struggle and revolution, his answer was: love. I agree with that, I think that it’s all about love: love of humanity, love of the world, love of all species of life.
Oh, yes, I think it needs a variety of means. And, like we were saying, there remain situations where people need to change things within the context that we are living in today. So it needs a variety of struggles too.
One of the reasons why straight edge became important to me is because I’m an addict. Whatever things I embrace, I have the tendency to go to the extreme, so straight edge was kind of my salvation with regard to that. I couldn’t do anything within moderation.
That being said, in joining Racetraitor, and in being politicized more solidly, straight edge became entirely political to me because of all the things that the industry of drugs and alcohol have been used for in the pacification and criminalization of different groups of people. It was a big part of COINTELPRO, the counterintelligence program in the 60s, and the CIA used it against the Black Panthers, the American Indian Movement, and other radical groups that were setting out to change things for the better.
It’s well documented that crack was flooded into impoverished neighborhoods, which a) apathizes people, and b) criminalizes them. In turn, this sets up the new slave trade, which is the prison-industrial complex—you can see in the make-up of the prison population what that’s all about.
Alcohol has been used to destroy indigenous communities all over the world, in Australia, America etc. So these are the reasons why, just on a moral level, I can’t support any of these industries. Besides, in the end, it always goes back to Earth Crisis: it’s about the purity of mind.
My connections to anarcho-primitivist circles are not that deep really. I know Jensen, I know Zerzan, who I’ve met a couple of times, and I’m friends with Tucker. And Tucker is straight edge. Or “feral edge,” as he calls it: the anarcho-primitivist version of it. It’s a big part of what he’s into. I think he has a great analysis of drugs and straight edge and of how it connects to anarcho-primitivism. He has this shirt that says Feral Edge—anything less would be civilized. I think that sums it up pretty well.
It’s a big thing for me, too. A lot of drug use comes with sedentism, which is one of the initial things that lead to civilized living since it causes dominionism and domestication. I think drug use and its social implications are big factors in civilization because we have become so socially retarded, so stunted in our social growth. We have no real social connection and alcohol serves as the big social lubricant. I think it’s so obvious how drug use is prevalent in civilized societies and why it’s a bad thing for so many different reasons.
That’s a big one for me as well. It’s been really hard to wrap my head around this. I know that Tucker was vegan for a long time and now he does roadkill and stuff. I always understood that in a better way of living, in the way of living that humanity is supposed to live, I wouldn’t be vegan. There is just a different connection, a different relationship. There’s a relationship between predator and prey that has nothing to do with the relationship that civilization has to the animals it uses in the meat and dairy industry, in factory farming etc. So I definitely don’t agree with the analysis that veganism saves the world. Not at all, because the whole question is still about civilization, and about farming and agriculture. However, having been vegan for so many years makes it really hard to just jump back in. Besides, within civilization veganism is important to me because, again, I’m against oppression and this applies to the meat and dairy industry and all that, and so that’s another thing I just can’t support. But I’ve been planning on buying some land up north in Wisconsin, to at least have something that can never be clear-cut and used for timber, and to have a place that’s wild, a place that I can utilize natural survival skills on. And then maybe one day I’ll start looking for roadkill, start fishing in natural ways and stuff. I don’t know when I’ll get to that bridge and when I’ll cross it, but I assume it will happen. As I said, I’ve been struggling with this for a while now and have had lots of talks with Tucker about it. It’s become kind of a running joke.
No, I totally understand that. I mean, different people would draw different lines, I guess, but I understand the concerns. And I think especially the puritan aspect of straight edge can be a real problem, not least with respect to anarcho-primitivism. I mean, as I’ve tried to explain, in the context of my life right now straight edge makes a lot of sense, but it can take on very problematic forms. I had my falling outs with people from that era too.
Well, that also marked the beginning of the end of Racetraitor. Some turned towards Islam, others didn’t, I was kinda young and mixed. I remember some of the guys explaining to me why Islam was the revolutionary way, and I was like, “Yeah, I can see that,” but, I mean, I still couldn’t fit it in into other things I knew and believed.
Exactly. I mean, when I read Ishmael it became really clear how religion comes from civilization and is part of the problem. Not that I have a problem with spirituality! But the way it exists within civilized living is totally different to how it exists in the natural world.
That, for me, defines anarcho-primitivism: I’m an anarchist because I don’t believe in systems of authority and because I don’t believe that anyone is there to rule us; and I’m a primitivist because I think we have lost our way and we belong into the system that has been around forever, and that’s the natural world.
Yes, definitely. I mean obviously there were a lot of different groups of hunters and gatherers, or band societies, which differed from one another in their social set-up. So there is no blanket way to explain them, but on the whole, yes, band society is a society that is comprised of much less people than any town, or village even, and obviously it works better: you know everyone, it’s more egalitarian, it’s more benefiting to the group. It’s totally different from anything we know. And it’s definitely better.
I think it all comes down to civilized living. We have a medical system that’s been set up to extend our lives—disabled or not—so unnaturally that it’s insane. Besides, civilization is the reason for most diseases we have. So, what will happen after the collapse? I don’t think anyone can say that, but I think it’s not gonna be pretty by any stretch of the imagination. And the further we go down this road, the uglier it will get. But I think eventually a certain balance will be reached.
I have been. I mean, I still am, I just don’t have a lot of time. I’m also really scared sometimes that I suck at writing a comic. The idea comes from me loving comics and movies—a contradiction since they are part of civilization, I know—and especially zombie type post-apocalyptic stories. I really think there is a reason why they are so present in popular culture right now. I think it’s because people kinda know what’s gonna happen, they sense that things are changing and that things are getting bad. And so they are really interested in the question of what people would do when it all ends. But with comics and movies, they usually end up dealing with it in a really fantastical setting. There have been some recent comics, though—comics I really loved, like The Walking Dead or Y: The Last Man —that made me think that it should be possible to do a different sort of story about the aftermath of the collapse. First I just thought, “Man, that’d be something I’d be really interested in reading!”—and then I thought, “Okay, so why don’t I write it?”
I guess the idea is to put some thoughts out there using a comic book, like not hitting people over the head with it, but being like, “Think about this resource running out, think about how bad it will get, think about how this will affect us all!” It’s not anything I’m having any big commercial plans with; in fact, I was thinking of doing it DIY maybe. It’s just something I’ve always wanted to do, and if there are a couple of kids out there who care, great!
Sure. Also with Zerzan or Tucker, there is always the obvious, “Okay, so why don’t you go and live it?” But I think these people need to continue writing about it because others need to hear their ideas and understand them and see what’s, in my opinion, wrong with the world. Even if reading and writing are obviously contradictions too...
There are huge contradictions. I fly a lot, I use a lot of fuels, we play shows for corporations that I don’t agree with, we meet people I don’t like—stuff like that. But, in fact, I think the whole experience has really galvanized my beliefs and my feelings, and I think it has got me to where I am today, to how radical I’ve become in my thinking.
I went through a pretty rough phase, where I was really bummed and lost, and I felt really hopeless, just wishing for the collapse. But the recent years and the experience with the band have made me stronger again. Maybe also because I’ve seen so many people mellow out, or sell out, or stop being straight edge or whatever. And seeing a lot of my friends fall on the wayside, within the band or outside, it just galvanized my beliefs and my convictions.
In being anti-civilization and anarcho-primitivist, yes; and also in being straight edge and vegan within the context of civilization.
No, not at all. For example, the other guys did a lot of stuff for the election. But whenever we did interviews, I just wouldn’t talk. They know what I think, they know that I’m not into it. Sometimes there’d be an interview when one of the reporters would direct a question specifically at me, and I’d be like, “Look, I’m an anarcho-primitivist, which means that I’m an anarchist, and so this is what I think about that ... That being said, I think one of these two dudes is gonna be elected, and even though I think the difference is really minimal because either will be the head of the same shitty system, I guess it’d be better for Obama to win ‘cause it’d be kinda cool from a historical standpoint.” And I mean, there were other things to consider, like Sarah Palin could have been pretty damaging for women, lots of things like that. In the end, I just think it goes back to what we were talking about before: there are things that still need to be done in the situation we are living in now.
For the most part I just avoid these situations. I hate that shit. But there are others in the band who can take care of that. I don’t have to be there. When we’re at shows and label people come, I just go somewhere else. And it’s helped, ‘cause it’s kept the reason I’m doing the band pure.
Just one more general comment on the contradictions of being in this band: I think there are contradictions in any fucking job. So at least I can play music with some of my best friends, guys who I have been friends with for years. And I love music, I’ve always played music, and I love the music we play.
Definitely. I think that’s one of the best things about it. It’s the same with Jensen who has some kind of mainstream appeal and is getting bigger. And I think he’s so important because of that, because he does get out to people who others don’t get to. And I have probably even bigger mainstream appeal and can get out to even more people. I might affect less people than he does because most of the people he’ll get already have some kind of radical interests. But I can at least bring up something that someone’s never heard and thought about before—and it might lead to them changing. That’s why I think Rage was so good. I understand all the criticism that they got, and I understand all the criticism of myself and the band I’m in—and the band I’m in is not even a political band. But that’s not the point, I guess. Anyway, I understand all that, but I think it’s just so important to educate and to use the opportunity I have. So anytime I can, I talk about stuff.
I also have a website now with a forum and a message board, fuckcity.com and I’m on it a lot, talking to kids, you know, fans of the band or whatever. The main thread I’m on is the one about collapse and anti-civ ideas. Just getting these kids to think about all this stuff has been pretty crazy. It’s just a couple of hundred people, but these are kids who had never heard about any of this before, and it’s pretty uplifting. It’s a really cool thing to see.
I’m using the site to talk whenever I can, and I wish I could do more. I strive to do as much as possible. Sadly, in the media I’m kinda pushed to the side a lot. Like, we recently did this article with Blender, and they just made me look like a total survivalist crazy dude. I think that tends to happen when I talk about stuff—but they won’t get me to stop talking.