SENATOR KENNEDY: Maybe we could talk a little bit with Mr. Scott and Mr. Pollard.
Maybe both of you gentlemen would be kind enough to tell us a little bit how you were first enrolled in the study, how you heard about it, if you can remember back to those days, how you became enrolled.
Let’s start with you, Mr. Pollard. Would you tell us a little bit about how you heard about this study, how you became involved?
MR. POLLARD: Back in 1932, I was going to school back then and they came around and said they wanted to have a clinic blood testing up there.
SENATOR KENNEDY: How old were you then?
MR. POLLARD: How old was I? Well, I was born in 1906. I had been married—no, I hadn’t been married. Anyhow, they came around give us the blood tests. After they give us the blood tests, all up there in the community, they said we had bad blood. After then they started giving us the shots and give us the shots for a good long time. I don’t remember how long it was. But after they got through giving us those shots, they give me a spinal tap. That was along in 1933. They taken me over to John Henry Hospital.
SENATOR KENNEDY: That is rather unpleasant, isn’t it, a spinal tap!
MR. POLLARD: It was pretty bad with me.
SENATOR KENNEDY: I have had a spinal tap myself. They stick that big, long needle into your spine.
MR. POLLARD: That is right, at John Andrew Hospital. After that, we went over early that morning, a couple of loads of us, and they taken us upstairs after giving us the spinal shot. They sit me down in the chair and the nurse and the doctor got behind and give me the shot. Then they take us upstairs in the elevators, our heels up and head down. They kept us there until five o’clock that evening, and then the nurse brought us back home.
These hearings were convened by Senator Edward Kennedy in 1973 over widespread concern with abuse in human experimentation, including the Tuskegee Study.
Originally published in Quality of Health Care: Human Experimentation, 1973, Hearings before the Subcommittee on Health of the Committee on Labor and Public Welfare, 93rd Cong. (Washington, D.C., 1973), 3:1036–43, 1210–14.
After then, I stayed in the bed. I had taken down a day or two after I got through with the spinal tap. I stayed in bed 10 days or two weeks and the nurse came out there and give me some pills. I don’t think she give me any of the medicine at that time, but just gave me some of the pills. Anyhow, she made several trips out there and I finally got in pretty good shape afterwards. It looked like my head was going back.
So after then they went to seen us once a year. They sent out notices for us to meet at Shiloh School. Sometimes they would just take the blood sample and give us some medicine right there at the school, under the oak tree where we met at Shiloh.
SENATOR KENNEDY: This is a small community?
MR. POLLARD: It is a small community.
SENATOR KENNEDY: How many people are in the community?
MR. POLLARD: Well, Tuskegee is about 12,000, but this other little place up there I imagine is a couple thousand people there. I am about three and a half miles out.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What would you do, come into town?
MR. POLLARD: That is right, go into town.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Did they have a little clinic there or a little hospital?
MR. POLLARD: They didn’t have any of that.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What did you do, just meet under the tree?
MR. POLLARD: Yes, at Shiloh School. It was about two and a half miles out. It is 10 miles between there and Tuskegee.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What did they do, ask you to come back once in a while or every couple of weeks?
MR. POLLARD: That is it. They would give us the date to come back and take those shots.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What were the shots for, to cure the bad blood?
MR. POLLARD: Bad blood, as far as I know of.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Did you think they were curing bad blood?
MR. POLLARD: I didn’t know. I just attended the clinic.
SENATOR KENNEDY: They told you to keep coming back and you did?
MR. POLLARD: When they got through giving the shots, yes. Then they give us that spinal puncture.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Did they tell you why they were giving a spinal puncture?
MR. POLLARD: No.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Did you think it was because they were trying to help you?
MR. POLLARD: To help me, yes.
SENATOR KENNEDY: You wanted some help?
MR. POLLARD: That is right. They said I had bad blood and they was working on it.
SENATOR KENNEDY: How long did they keep working on it?
MR. POLLARD: After that shot, that spinal shot—
SENATOR KENNEDY: When was that?
MR. POLLARD: That was in 1933.
SENATOR KENNEDY: 1933?
MR. POLLARD: That is right. I don’t remember what month it was in, but I know it was in 1933.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Did they treat you after that? Did they treat you after 1933?
MR. POLLARD: Yes. They treat me every year. They would come down and see us every year. Of course, during that time, after I taken that spinal puncture, I wore a rubber belt around my stomach. It had a long strand around it and I would run it around, come back in front and tie it in a bow knot. They used a little ointment or salve that I rubbed on my stomach. I reckon I wore it a year or six months, something like that. After then they would see us once a year up to 25 years.
SENATOR KENNEDY: During this time, did they indicate to you what kind of treatment they were giving you, or that you were involved in any kind of test or experiment?
MR. POLLARD: No, they never did say what it was.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What did you think they were doing, just trying to cure the bad blood?
MR. POLLARD: That is all I knew of.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Did they ever take any more blood and examine it and tell you the blood was getting better?
MR. POLLARD: They would take out blood, though.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What did they tell you after they would take the blood?
MR. POLLARD: They would just give us the pills and sometimes they would give us a little tablet to put under our tongue for sore throats. Then they would give us the green medicine for a tonic to take after meals.
SENATOR KENNEDY: You thought they were treating the bad blood?
MR. POLLARD: That is right.
SENATOR KENNEDY: During this time did they ever give you any compensation or any money?
MR. POLLARD: After that 25 years they gave me $25, a $20 and a $5 bill.
SENATOR KENNEDY: After 25 years?
MR. POLLARD: That is it. They give me a certificate.
SENATOR KENNEDY: They gave you a what?
MR. POLLARD: They gave me a certificate and a picture with six of us on there.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What did the certificate say, do you remember?
MR. POLLARD: This is one of them here in my hand.
SENATOR KENNEDY: It is a certificate of merit, is it?
“U.S. Public Health Service. This certificate is awarded in grateful recognition of 25 years of participation in the Tuskegee Medical Research Study.”
MR. POLLARD: I have one of these and then I have one with a picture of five more on it.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Were you glad to get it? Were you glad to get that certificate?
MR. POLLARD: Yes.
SENATOR KENNEDY: You were glad to get the $25.
MR. POLLARD: That is right. I used the $25.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Did they ever offer you anything else? Did they ever offer you any kind of free meals or free rides, anything like that?
MR. POLLARD: No. We would have a lunch when we would go over to the Veterans Hospital. We would go to the canteen and have lunch. A lot of times I went in my own car and I would help the nurse carry the boys down there sometimes, a lot of times. I would always go in my car a lot of times.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Sometime last fall did you hear or read about the experiment that was taking place, the study that was taking place on you and some of the others that were supposed to have bad blood?
MR. POLLARD: Back last year?
SENATOR KENNEDY: Yes.
MR. POLLARD: Yes.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Would you tell us a little bit about that, how you first heard about it, and what your reaction was to it?
MR. POLLARD: The people that contacted me at the stockyard—
SENATOR KENNEDY: Is that where you worked?
MR. POLLARD: That is where I worked when they contacted me. A heavy built lady contacted me.
SENATOR KENNEDY: How long have you worked at the stockyard.
MR. POLLARD: I wasn’t working out there. I was taking some cows down there last summer, my grandboy and myself.
SENATOR KENNEDY: How old is he?
MR. POLLARD: The grandboy?
SENATOR KENNEDY: Yes.
MR. POLLARD: He is 17.
SENATOR KENNEDY: So you were taking some cows down to the stockyard?
MR. POLLARD: That is it. I was taking the cows down there. A lady came up to me and asked about Charles Pollard. I looked at my grandboy and said, “I didn’t know Charles Pollard. I knew Charles Wesley Pollard,” and she said, “Yes, you are the one.” She said she had been all over and asked about me but nobody had seen me. But I had been on the payroll bringing cows down there.
Afterwards, she told me to go ahead and get my cows unloaded and to come back out there, that she wanted to talk with me. So that is what I did.
SENATOR KENNEDY: So you went out and talked to her?
MR. POLLARD: That is right.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What did she tell you?
MR. POLLARD: She asked me wasn’t I in a study or a clinic back 40 years ago. I looked at my grandboy then and he looked back. I had done forgot about it. I said, “Yes, I was in a clinic back in that time but I have done forgot about it.” So she wanted to know the story of it.
You see, after them 25 years, the doctors started them two years and after that went for about three years. I haven’t seen them in the last three or four years.
SENATOR KENNEDY: You haven’t seen them in the last three or four years?
MR. POLLARD: No. I told her the best I could about it, what I could remember.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Were you surprised when you heard about it?
MR. POLLARD: That is right. I was surprised.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Were you a little mad that you were sort of being used in a test that you didn’t know about?
MR. POLLARD: Well, at that time, you see, I didn’t know nothing about it until well after I got back home. I had taken the Birmingham News. I have been taking it for 25 or 30 years. It was there. What I told her was in the Birmingham News that evening. So we read it, got to reading it, and talking about black men in Macon County. Of course, the week before then they had told in the news there about 400 or 600 men, whatever it was, the black men in Macon County, but I didn’t give it even a thought, until after she told me that. That was on a Tuesday when she saw me.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Have you seen any doctors since then? Have any doctors come down to see you and help you at all recently?
MR. POLLARD: Not lately.
SENATOR KENNEDY: In the last few months?
MR. POLLARD: No. The Government doctors, no. I had been visiting a doctor, some individual doctors. Of course, I had a bad case of arthritis last year, in the last week in January. I went to Montgomery to a doctor for a month. He give an X-ray on me and sent me back to the bone specialist in Tuskegee. He doctored on me for about a month and I got on crutches and stayed on them. He finally told me to go back home. If it never did get no worse, don’t come back. So I am still taking medicine, capsules that he give me. That was after he give me that shot in the hip.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Did you get any bill from the doctor for seeing him about your arthritis?
MR. POLLARD: Did I get a bill from him?
SENATOR KENNEDY: Yes.
MR. POLLARD: No, because I paid him each time.
SENATOR KENNEDY: You paid him?
MR. POLLARD: Yes, each time. That was my doctor.
SENATOR KENNEDY: How much do you pay for a visit down there?
MR. POLLARD: The X-ray cost me $25 and the medicine one time cost me $15.
SENATOR KENNEDY: That one X-ray was equivalent to the $25 you got from the Government.
MR. POLLARD: That is right. And after then I went back and got some medicine. I think I had to pay him $10 that trip. He didn’t make the X-ray until to wind it up. Then he sent me back to Dr. Hume, in Tuskegee.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Did you pay him, too?
MR. POLLARD: Dr. Hume? That is right.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Do you remember how much that was?
MR. POLLARD: I paid him $15, I think, the first time. On the next trip I think I paid him $10. But I have been buying the medicine. I bought the medicine and I paid for the medicine at the desk.
SENATOR KENNEDY: It runs into a lot of money, doesn’t it?
MR. POLLARD: Yes, when you go to these hospitals. Of course, back in 1961 I had an operation. I had a gland operation.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Mr. Scott, would you tell us a little bit about how you heard about this?
MR. SCOTT: Yes. In 1932, we were all on the farm and going to school and Miss Rivers came out and Dr. Smith. He said he wanted to see all of us people around there, to meet at the school. So we went out and he said the purpose was to take the test of blood. So he drew blood and we went back home.
He said to be out here next Wednesday. We went back and he said, “You have bad blood and we will have to give you shots.” So we would go up every week or sometimes every other week, and take shots. That is how I got involved in that. I had taken the shots for a good long while and then left the county to go to another community, but we would meet with him.
SENATOR KENNEDY: How long did you take the shots?
MR. SCOTT: We were taking those shots for about a year, almost a year.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Did you receive any compensation for this?
MR. SCOTT: I was away up in Ohio. At the time they wrote a letter to my sister and they sent $25. They said it was for the study, with Miss Rivers.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Is that the first time that you knew you were involved in a study?
MR. SCOTT: I was involved in it before I left. This time, this study now, I got involved through Miss Rivers, I believe it was.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What did you think they were giving the shots for?
MR. SCOTT: Bad blood.
SENATOR KENNEDY: They just told you it was for bad blood?
MR. SCOTT: Yes.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Did you think the shots were making you better?
MR. SCOTT: I thought they would at that time.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Is that what the doctor told you who gave you the shots?
MR. SCOTT: Yes. He told me it was for bad blood.
SENATOR KENNEDY: And sometime later you got the $25?
MR. SCOTT: Yes. It was six or seven years after I left.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Did you get a certificate of appreciation, too?
MR. SCOTT: No, I did not.
SENATOR KENNEDY: But you heard that some of the others got it.
How did you feel after you read in the newspapers that you had been involved in this kind of study or experiment? Did that bother you at all?
MR. SCOTT: Well, not too much at that time because I was thinking of my health, figuring they were doing me good. So I didn’t think too much of it. I thought it would be all right.
And then when this study came along. I don’t think much of it because I think they were just using me for something else, as an experiment.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Do you think that is right?
MR. SCOTT: No, I don’t think that is right.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Do you think they should have told you about it?
MR. SCOTT: I think they should have told. If they had told, I would have resorted to a family doctor or some other doctor.
SENATOR KENNEDY: You would have gone to your family doctor and got treated?
MR. SCOTT: Yes.
SENATOR KENNEDY: You thought you were being treated?
MR. SCOTT: I thought I was being treated then.
SENATOR KENNEDY: And you were not?
MR. SCOTT: I was not.
SENATOR KENNEDY: That is not right, is it?
MR. SCOTT: No, it is not right.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What do you think the Government ought to do now?
MR. SCOTT: I think the Government ought to do something as they were using us. They ought to give us compensation or something like that, where we can see other doctors and continue our health. That is what I think.
SENATOR KENNEDY: You want to make sure that the next time you see a Government doctor that he is treating you to get you better.
MR. SCOTT: That is right.
SENATOR KENNEDY: That is what you want.
MR. SCOTT: And I can be sure I go to the right doctor.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What about you, Mr. Pollard? What would you like?
MR. POLLARD: This I read in the paper I don’t want no parts of it.
I was fixing to say I was booked to go to Birmingham when this penicillin come out, but the nurse told me I wasn’t able to go up there. So they turned me down. I don’t want no more part of it.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Mr. Scott and Mr. Pollard, when you were talking to these doctors that were giving you these shots, did they ever suggest to you or recommend to you that you not have a family?
MR. SCOTT: No, they did not.
MR. POLLARD: Not what?
SENATOR KENNEDY: Not have a family. Did they ever recommend to you that you not have a family?
MR. POLLARD: No, they never said anything about that.
SENATOR KENNEDY: They never mentioned that?
MR. POLLARD: No.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Mr. Gray, have you any further comments?
MR. GRAY: I would simply like to say, Senator Kennedy, on behalf of these participants we certainly want to express our genuine appreciation for being able to come. At least now this committee knows the views of the participants, and we certainly hope that this subcommittee and the Congress will take appropriate action to see that these people are adequately compensated.
Thank you.
SENATOR KENNEDY: I want to thank you very much for coming. As you know several months ago, some four months ago, the Department of HEW indicated that they were going to move on this to try and remedy or rectify the situation.
The commission met on March 1 and indicated that still there had been no care forthcoming. We had another commitment pledge by the Secretary that there would be action. I want to indicate to you that we are going to make sure, as far as the power of this Senate Subcommittee, that there will be help and assistance and care for all of those individuals.
It is absolutely an outrageous and intolerable situation which this Government never should have been involved in. That is bad enough, but we are going to do everything in our power to work with Mr. Pollard and Mr. Scott, and all of the others who still need the help, and the heirs of the others as well.
I want to give those assurances to you, Mr. Pollard and Mr. Scott. We will look forward to working with you.
MR. GRAY: We have waited really, Senator, about nine months on the Government to take some action before we would take any legal action. The Government simply moves very slowly and time is beginning to run out on us.
Thank you.
SENATOR KENNEDY: We are going to stay after it and we will work with you.
I want to thank both of you gentlemen for your appearance here, for your willingness to share with us your experience. It has been very, very helpful.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Could we hear from either Mr. Shaw or Mr. Howard.
Mr. Shaw, did you sometimes leave Tuskegee County and travel to another place, and did the Public Health Service offices in the new county attempt to treat the syphilis?
MR. SHAW: No sir.
MR. GRAY: He lives right on the county line, just out of Macon County in an adjoining county. That is how he ended up being sent to Birmingham.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Maybe he could just tell us a little bit about his experience.
MR. SHAW: Mr. Chairman, would you like to know how I became involved in the study?
SENATOR KENNEDY: Yes, in your own words.
MR. SHAW: For those who are living and remember, and for those who just read about it, in 1932 we began to emerge from what was known as the Hoover panic. We did not have adequate money, in other words, to care for our families. This offer was made in 1932 as free medication known as a blood test. I entered it in 1932 and was affiliated with it ever since.
Every 4 years they would take our blood. They would transport us to the Tuskegee VA hospital and give us a thorough examination.
In the late 1940’s—I do not remember the exact date—they sent me to Birmingham. We left about 2 o’clock and we got to Birmingham before dark. They gave us our supper and put us to bed. The next morning they gave us breakfast. I saw a nurse roaming through the crowd. She said she had been worried all night. She said that she had been looking for a man that was not supposed to be here and his name is Herman Shaw. Naturally I stood up. She said come here.
She said what are you doing up here? I said I do not know, they sent me here. They got me a bus and sent me back home. When I notified the nurse of what happened in Macon County, I did not get any response.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Did you feel during this period that you were being cured, that they were looking after your medical needs?
MR. SHAW: I have never had any treatment whatever.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What did they tell you when they looked at your blood? Did they tell you it looked good or looked bad?
MR. SHAW: I just got a slap on the back and they said you are good for 100 years. That is all I ever had.
SENATOR KENNEDY: How many years have they been slapping you on your back?
MR. SHAW: Forty years.
SENATOR KENNEDY: You were in this study for 40 years?
MR. SHAW: Yes, sir.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Did they give you any kind of compensation while they were doing this study?
MR. SHAW: No sir, with the exception of a 25-year certificate.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Twenty-five year what?
MR. SHAW: Twenty-five year health certificate. They gave us a dollar a year, $25.
SENATOR KENNEDY: A dollar a year?
MR. SHAW: Yes sir. Up to that time, from 1932, up until the time the 25-year limit ran out.
SENATOR KENNEDY: So the only compensation you have received has been the $25?
MR. SHAW: That is right.
SENATOR KENNEDY: And the certificate of merit?
MR. SHAW: Yes, sir.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What was the certificate of merit for?
MR. SHAW: I do not know, sir. It was for regular attendance, that is all I can figure.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Do you think it is because you kept going back to the nurse or the doctor and letting them take your blood as they told you to do?
MR. SHAW: Yes, sir.
SENATOR KENNEDY: When you were told to go back, did you think this was a check up and that since they didn’t prescribe medication, that therefore you were healthy? What did you assume?
MR. SHAW: Every year they would give us a white tablet for pain and a little vial—I guess it was some type of tonic. Every year for 40 years up to now, we had two different doctors. We would never get the same doctor back each time.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Different doctors?
MR. SHAW: Different doctor every year.
SENATOR KENNEDY: When was the last time you were at a clinic?
MR. SHAW: Last year.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What did they tell you last year?
MR. SHAW: Slap on the back and said I was good for 100 years. I guess it was routine.
SENATOR KENNEDY: They gave you tablets in case you had any pain?
MR. SHAW: Yes.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Did you ever have to take those tablets?
MR. SHAW: Sometimes. Sometimes they would stay in the bottle until they were brown as that wall.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What did you think when you read about the news of the story, when the story broke about this experiment that you were a part of? What was your reaction to it?
MR. SHAW: Being personally acquainted with Attorney Gray, I went to his office for advice and carried him the information I had received.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Were you surprised to read that this experiment was taking place and that you had been a part of it?
MR. SHAW: Yes, sir; I certainly was surprised.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Were you happy or were you sad?
MR. SHAW: I was sad in a way, and I was happy with the consolation that Mr. Gray gave me.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Have your lives changed very much down there, Mr. Shaw, after the publicity in the community?
MR. SHAW: Beg pardon?
SENATOR KENNEDY: Have the people in the town or community treated you any differently after the news came out?
MR. SHAW: No, sir. In a way they seemed to be very hopeful, those in the study that I have talked with.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What do you think that the Federal Government ought to do now?
MR. SHAW: Having made the sacrifices, I think we should be paid.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Fair compensation for this?
MR. SHAW: Yes, sir.
SENATOR KENNEDY: They have had this experiment with you, you have been a part of it 40-odd years?
MR. SHAW: Yes, sir.
SENATOR KENNEDY: I suppose you realize that when the Federal Government participates in these other studies they compensate people. All you are trying to get is the same kind of compensation?
MR. SHAW: That is right.
SENATOR KENNEDY: At this time you want to make sure you get some decent health care, too, I imagine.
MR. SHAW: I am glad you mentioned that. The man that came offered me medicare, medication, and what have you.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Which man is this?
MR. SHAW: I do not know who he was. He came and left a letter at my house and left a card. I work from 2 until 10.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Where do you work?
MR. GRAY: Tallassee Mill.
SENATOR KENNEDY: How long have you worked there?
MR. SHAW: Forty-four years and working there now. I am 70.
SENATOR KENNEDY: You are 70?
MR. SHAW: Yes, sir.
SENATOR KENNEDY: I think you are going to live to be 100 years.
MR. SHAW: I told the man that I have Medicare. I have medication and hospital insurance. I can walk. I do not see any need for anybody holding my arm. I can stand on my own feet and walk. I had everything they offered me and so compensation is what I need now.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Mr. Howard, we want to welcome you here. Maybe you could tell us a little about your experience.
MR. HOWARD: About who has been at my place?
SENATOR KENNEDY: Tell us a little bit about how you got involved.
MR. HOWARD: I hardly know how I got involved in it. I was involved in it in 1932. They were having school in the church, and I think the teacher put out a notice for everybody in the community to meet out there on a certain date. Dr. Smith and I were the first two, I remember. At the end of a 2 hour meeting, they started taking blood, checking temperatures, heartbeat, blood system, and all of that. I got the same thing for about 40 years, I guess. I did get $25, and I do not know if it was for appreciation or they just decided they would give me something because I was so good about meeting them every time.
SENATOR KENNEDY: You met with them every time you were supposed to?
MR. HOWARD: Yes, sir.
SENATOR KENNEDY: They gave you $25 too?
MR. HOWARD: They gave me $25 and a 25-year certificate for being with them that long. I think I got that in 1958.
SENATOR KENNEDY: When was the last time you saw the doctor?
MR. HOWARD: I saw him last year in June.
SENATOR KENNEDY: June of this past year?
MR. HOWARD: Yes, sir, last year in June.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What did the doctor tell you?
MR. HOWARD: He just gave me some pills and some medicine out of a bottle and said she would see me soon. That was last year in June, and I have not seen her since.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What did you think was happening when you saw these doctors over the period of these years? Did you think they were giving you a clean bill of health?
MR. HOWARD: I hardly know. I had bad blood and they said they were working on it.
SENATOR KENNEDY: Did they indicate to you your blood was getting better?
MR. HOWARD: No, sir, they didn’t say—or getting worse—
SENATOR KENNEDY: When you heard about the study what did you do? Were you very much concerned about it?
MR. HOWARD: Yes. When I first heard about it, I did not give it too much attention. I first read it in the paper. The next time I heard it broadcast on the TV. Every time they would come by, I would read something, but I could not understand what it meant.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What did you do about it? Did you try to find Mr. Gray?
MR. HOWARD: I went to hunt Mr. Gray several different times, but it was a long time before I could catch him.
SENATOR KENNEDY: He is a busy man working in the legislature, and I am sure tries to help the people.
Then you had either a letter or visit from somebody recently, as I understand, telling you that your medical bills were going to be looked out after. Do you remember that?
MR. HOWARD: Yes. A man came to my house—
SENATOR KENNEDY: How long ago was that?
MR. HOWARD: About 3 weeks ago. He left me a letter to read. Everything he promised me I already had, medicaid and medicare, and private insurance.
He said he would be back Thursday about 12 o’clock. But he came back Thursday about 9 o’clock that morning, and I told him I did not need that because I already had it. He did not say anything.
SENATOR KENNEDY: So you already had what the Public Health Service was offering you, is that right?
MR. HOWARD: Yes, I already had that.
SENATOR KENNEDY: What do you think you need? What do you want them to do for you?
MR. HOWARD: I need some money, that is what I need.
SENATOR KENNEDY: You think you ought to be compensated like others in the country are compensated when they are made a part of tests like that? You are asking that you be treated the same as other people are treated in this respect, is that right?
MR. HOWARD: Yes.
SENATOR KENNEDY: I want to thank both of you gentlemen, Mr. Howard and Mr. Shaw, for coming up here. As we indicated, we are going to pursue this issue and work with you to make sure that justice is done in this case.
We want to let you know personally that I and the committee are committed to making sure that you get the things which you need now and in the future. We are very glad that you are here.
MR. GRAY: Thank you very much.
SENATOR KENNEDY: We want to thank you, Representative Gray, for being with us. You have effectively pushed this issue, and I know the people involved value highly your counsel and guidance. We want to tell you how much we have appreciated working with you on this matter.
MR. GRAY: Thank you very much.