Sorita D’Este
MT: Sorita, first of all thank you so much for your hospitality and for allowing me to interview you. Perhaps it would be a good idea for you explain the terms “Gnostic Theurgist.”
SD: Thank you, Mark. Over the years I have found religious and spiritual “labels” to be more of a hindrance than a help. So I decided to try to find a term which describe my own personal beliefs and practices in a way which is unlikely to change as I grow in knowledge and experience of myself and therefore would not restrain me. The term “Gnostic” comes from the Greek meaning “knowledge” and “theurgist” being one who practices theurgy, which also comes from the Greek, referring to the practice of rituals performed with the aim of achieving henosis with the Divine. Therefore a literal meaning might be “a practitioner of rituals with the aim of achieving union with the Divine and a seeker of divine knowledge.” The knowledge in this context being a type of mystical or divine revelation, achieved through experience of the Divine.
MT: Fascinating. You also use the term “Devotee of the Seven Wandering Stars.”
SD: When I refer to myself as a Devotee of the Seven Wandering Stars it’s a reference to the Mysteries—the Seven Wandering Stars, or the “Deathless Gods” (Classical planets—i.e., Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Saturn, and Jupiter) have been around since the beginning of time and play an important role in most of the religious traditions of the West, as well as elsewhere in the world. The Mysteries here, being not just the Mystery Traditions of the ancient world, but also those “truths” which are universal to all spiritual traditions, for me keeping a focus on that allows me to see past the boundaries of the traditions in which they are respectively worshiped or evoked as Gods or Spirits, under many different names, but instead see what there is to learn and gain from the knowledge they have to teach us. Alternatively, I could also just be called an “old-fashioned, stubborn wild woman”; people usually remember that better.
MT: Last time I was here, I also met David Rankine, a well-respected authority and author on (among other things) the Qabalah. I remember the three of us getting into a fascinating discussion on the Qabalah and the significance of Jesus’s death on the cross (which I shall to come back to in a later question). First, however, can you tell me whether the figure of Jesus was to a lesser or greater degree, part of your upbringing as a child?
SD: Jesus was an absolutely intricate part of my childhood. I was raised in the Dutch Reformed Church (Nederlands Gereformeerde Kerk), whilst also having parallel Roman Catholic influences on my views and beliefs along the way from a young age. As a child I had what I now realize to be a series of profoundly spiritual experiences that led me to study the only religion I was familiar with at the time, Christianity (I was raised in Cape Town, South Africa, during the apartheid years). I prayed to Jesus at least as much as I did, instinctively, to the moon, sun, stars, and winds; but it was the moon, sun, stars, and winds who answered my prayers more often and stole my heart.
MT: So does Jesus still feel important to you?
SD: From a personal spiritual perspective, not at all. From a historical and cultural perspective, I consider Jesus to be an important symbol which has been understood, misunderstood, interpreted, misinterpreted, reworked, and reinvented by each successive generation. Jesus is a phenomenal power of both good and evil for those who believe in him for their salvation, and for those who encounter those who follow his traditions. From a magical perspective, Jesus is important as an example of the perfected self, who has unified all of their being. In Qabalistic terms, this is expressed through the union of the three parts of the soul, the Nephesh (animal soul), Ruach (breath), and Neshamah (higher soul). This unification was described in the major thirteenth-century Qabalistic book, the Zohar, which declared “Man is a threefold product of life (Nephesh), spirit (Ruach), and soul (Neshamah), by the blending and union of which he became a living spirit, a manifestation of the Divine.” Jesus represents that manifestation of the Divine achieved through this union.
MT: Amazing. I think people will be absolutely fascinated by what you’ve just said. So, you do see Jesus as a historical person then?
SD: I believe absolutely that there was a historical person at the centre of the Jesus-myth. His message was clearly one of acceptance and love, and of change—whilst at the same time reflecting a strong sense of humble respect. I am not really qualified to speak on behalf of the different Christian churches today; their beliefs and practices are something I am only marginally familiar with.
MT: Who was Jesus the historical man? For example, was he a simple Jewish teacher, a divine prophet, a miracle worker, a magician, or even a literal Incarnation of God?
SD: I perceive Jesus as a man who reached a state of enlightenment and then sought to share the vision of perfection he had experienced. This is born out repeatedly through his teachings, if we interpret the kingdom of heaven as perfection, and appreciate that Jesus always encouraged people to manifest that kingdom on earth through their thoughts and deeds. Jesus also emphasised that he did not come to change the existing laws, but to change the perspectives of people. In this he can be considered a teacher, but certainly not a revolutionary, and the frequency with which Jesus quoted Scripture and used it to make a point demonstrates the strength of his heritage and his foundations in it. I feel that in his death, Jesus achieved an apotheosis, something demonstrated by the Qabalistic symbolism of the crucifixion. Jesus was crucified between two thieves, so he represents the balance and harmony of the Middle Pillar of the Qabalistic Tree of Life, with the two thieves representing the outer Black and White pillars. However the location of Golgotha (“place of the skull”) was also key, as it was the place where Adam was said to have been buried. When the blood of Jesus dripped to the ground and permeated it, he redeemed the original sin of Adam by willingly giving of his life and showed that perfection on earth was possible.
MT: Sorita, during the research for this book I’ve become more and more aware of a difference between the two terms “Jesus” and “Christ.” Many progressive Christians and Pagans see Jesus as a fully human being and Christ as a more cosmic “spark of deity” within all things. Do you have any thoughts on this?
SD: To me there is a very clear difference between Jesus and Christ. In fact, I would go so far as to separate them into three distinct terms—Jesus, Christ, and Jesus Christ. I see Jesus as the historical figure, the man who was a Rabbi and teacher, who gained enlightenment and sought to bring his vision of heaven on earth into manifestation in the physical world around him. Christ, or maybe more accurately the Christ Force, is the power that has been strengthened and empowered by centuries of prayer and devotion from millions of Christians—in magical terms, it is an egregore, an astral form which has become manifest as a storehouse for the energy directed at it over the centuries—whether by simple peasants, church bishops, saints, or sinners—their combined hope for salvation and a better future has brought this force into life, shaping it through the centuries. It’s a reservoir of energy, which allows for communion between all those who are able to access it through prayer and the pure force of their faith. Then finally, Jesus Christ to me is the figure who has been shaped by the Church to present their view of what he represents. As such Jesus Christ is a gateway image to access the Christ (or Christ Force), which reminds me of the line from the Gospel of John (14:6), “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” In this regard one can also see Jesus the historical figure recorded in the gospels as being a gateway image to the Christ Force too, but with the difference that it is a simpler, humbler gateway. Speaking from a magical perspective, I believe this gateway to be an easier and more direct door to the Christ Force, as it can be accessed based on an individual’s personal understanding and interpretation of Jesus’s life, rather than an enforced (and often political) point of view which might be enforced by a particular Church tradition. Through the examples he set in his life, Jesus presents us with a pathway to God, a pathway which is incredibly simplistic and much in keeping with the teachings of many of the other spiritual traditions of its time, as well as those who went before. In order to perceive that pathway, however, we have to put prejudice aside and look at what is before us. A force which cannot be owned by any institution or any individual, but rather which can only be accessed by those who have overcome their own fears and who are able to achieve their own personal union with God through their faith.
MT: Do you think Pagan traditions or concepts sometimes reflect the spirit of Jesus better than Christian ones?
SD: I do think that individuals of all religious and spiritual traditions are able to reflect his core message and philosophies and carry his proverbial light into the future. I think individuals have the innate ability to serve one another and share in spiritual awakening, and it is my opinion that individuals are able to achieve this through belief and through absolute spiritual conviction. I don’t think that the particular religious tradition an individual finds themselves to be joined to, whether through birth, life’s journey, or choice, is really that relevant. Spiritual conviction, faith, and belief manifest themselves regardless and sometimes even in spite of these traditions. All you need are strength of will, desire for knowledge, courage to dare, and the ability to appreciate silence within and without. The Demiurge does not belong to a religious tradition; it is universal.
One of the most significant recorded and surviving oracles given by the goddess Hekate was recorded by Porphyry, and commented on Jesus and Christianity. Porphyry, a Neo-Platonic philosopher of the third century ce who followed the works of Plotinus, also studied Jewish scriptures and attended lectures by the Christian theologian Origen. The oracle from Hekate was probably in response to his own questions, for he was the author of the most significant intellectual anti-Christian writings of his age, Against the Christians and Prophecy from Oracles. In some ways, the words of this oracle also reflect some of my own views on Jesus:
And to those who ask why he [Jesus] was condemned to die, the oracle of the goddess [Hekate] replied, ‘The body, indeed, is always exposed to torments, but the souls of the pious abide in heaven. And the soul you inquire about has been the fatal cause of error to other souls which were not fated to receive the gifts of the gods, and to have the knowledge of immortal Jove. Such souls are therefore hated by the gods; for they who were fated not to receive the gifts of the gods, and not to know God, were fated to be involved in error by means of him you speak of. He himself, however, was good, and heaven has been opened to him as to other good men. You are not, then, to speak evil of him, but to pity the folly of men: and through him men’s danger is imminent.
—(Prophecy from Oracles, Porphyry,
c. 3 ce, trans. J. R. King)219
MT: We’ve just seen another Christmas come and go. What feelings or thoughts does the Christmas story conjure up in you?
SD: For me it’s always been a nice story, but with an avid interest in mythology since childhood it didn’t take me long to find out that the story itself is not unique to Christianity. The solar God Mithras, for example, born from the virgin Goddess Anahita, predates the Christian myth by quite some time and has some remarkable similarities. For me the most interesting part of the story is the manifestation of the archangel Gabriel and the three Magi. I love incense and ascribe that to a fascination with frankincense and myrrh inspired by this myth.
MT: And the same for Easter?
SD: Easter for me is about light and new life; it’s springtime here in the Northern Hemisphere, after all. The symbol of the sacrificed and resurrected God is one which is often associated with this time of the year, so again it is no surprise to find such a myth in Christianity. It is the time that seeds buried in the ground magically comes to life, bursting through from the darkness into the light—awakening new hope, as life is literally “resurrected.”
MT: What about the actual stories Jesus told. Do you have a favourite story, parable, teaching, or symbol of Jesus?
SD: My favourite of Jesus’s teachings is probably the “first remove the log from your own eye before you remove the speck from your neighbour’s.” It is such a simple phrase and yet so eternally relevant, offering a simple path of behaviour. The phrase reminds us that it is all too easy to fall into criticism of others, and that we all have failings. If we address our own weaknesses and turn them into strengths, then we may find that the quality that irritated us in another person was really irritating us in ourselves, and the person was a mirror that showed us. It also implies that if you do have a criticism to make of another person, it can be done in a positive and constructive way, which improves that person’s perspective (removes the speck).
MT: Wonderful. So what lessons do you feel the modern-day church needs to hear from the person or teachings of Jesus?
SD: I think that modern followers of Christ, in addition to Christians who express their faith through a church, should go back to basics. There are so many misunderstandings and so much hearsay passed down as fact that I think more than often, people are blind to that which is obvious and staring them in the face. This is true for Christians as much as it is for followers of many other religious traditions around the world, so it might be as much a human condition rather than one specifically inherent in the church.
MT: In your opinion do you think it’s possible to be both Christian and Pagan?
SD: This is a big question in a short sentence. Personally, as an outsider to both religious traditions with experience and insights into both, I would say that it depends on your definition of “Christian” and your definition of “Pagan,” which as anyone who has ever studied religion will know is not as straightforward as it might seem. There are so many different strands of Christianity today that it might more rightfully—as some scholars have suggested—be referred to as “Christianities” and thus become an umbrella term for all the various strands, some of which are a lot more accepting and progressive in thinking than others. “Pagan” is a much-disputed term, today often taken by adherents of the modern forms of it to be a Nature-based spiritual path, but which of course historically has been used more often than not to mean someone who is specifically non-Christian. So there is a dilemma with terminology. However, if you mean “Pagan” to mean someone who has a respect for and sees divinity as being inherent or expressed through nature, and “Christian” a follower of Christ in the same way as the early disciples, learning from his words, and studying his teachings rather than that of a particular institutionalised form of Church Christianity, then I would say there is nothing stopping someone from being a follower of Christ with a strong affinity for the divine expressed through nature. In fact, if you look at iconography and if you read the texts of the Bible it is clear that a strong respect for nature, and an affinity with the natural world as an expression of the Divine has always been an inherently essential part of the teachings presented therein. This is in keeping with other spiritual, religious, and philosophical teachings of the time which were contemporary with those of the books now included in the Bible (New Testament).
MT: Are there any lessons that modern-day Pagans can learn from the message or person of Jesus?
SD: Modern Pagans can learn a great deal from Jesus the person. The most obvious lesson from his actions is knowing when to act and when to do nothing. Jesus always encouraged people to act based on their faith rather than simply spoon-feeding them. This is particularly emphasised when he pointed out he had not come to help the virtuous or righteous, but those who needed help. Jesus showed that a light provides illumination, but it is still up to the individual to walk their path and ultimately provide their own light. The ability to not apportion blame and to accept people’s failings, i.e., selfless compassion, is perhaps the most important lesson Jesus can teach modern Pagans.
MT: And can Christians learn from modern-day Paganism?
SD: I think that institutionalized Church Christians would benefit from taking on a more holistic view of the world, being more open to the beliefs of others and knowing that by learning about the beliefs and religious practices of others you can strengthen your own. They could also benefit from the idea that studying the roots of your beliefs can enrich your understanding of those beliefs.
MT: Well, this has been an amazing discussion and huge learning experience for me. Thank you again, Sorita, for your wisdom, hospitality, and … cakes!
SD: You’re very welcome Mark.
About the Author
Sorita D’Este is an esoteric researcher, author, and Priestess who manifests her knowledge of the wisdom of the ancient world into the modern age through her work. Her areas of expertise include the Western Esoteric Traditions, European Mythology, British Folklore and the Grimoire Tradition; with particular passion for the magic and mystery of the Seven Wandering Stars, Graeco-Egyptian Magic, and the goddess Hekate. She is probably best put in a box with the label “Mystical Enchantress, Priestess, Author, and Esoteric Researcher.” She is a prolific writer and passionate researcher who has authored/co-authored fifteen books on magic, mythology, and mysticism to date. These include Hekate Liminal Rites, Practical Planetary Magick, Practical Elemental Magick, and Visions of the Cailleach.