Oberon Zell-Ravenheart
MT: Oberon, it’s truly marvelous to be able to talk with you about this strange, first-century wandering prophet, healer—or was he a magician?—called Jesus. Thank you so much for giving me some of your precious time. Let’s begin with a question that I feel is very appropriate to direct at you. As a Wizard—in fact, as the head master of a real-life Wizard School—what fascinates you most about Jesus the miracle worker?
OZ: His congruence with other famous Wizards—especially those of his own time, such as Simon Magus (f l. 20–50 ce), Apollonius of Tyana (c. 30–96 ce), Cailitín (first century ce), Elymas the Sorcerer (first century ce), Jean (first century ce), and Veleda (first century ce). I find it fascinating to compare and contrast all of these “miracle workers”!
MT: I wish we had the time to explore all those congruences now, but alas, we don’t. Perhaps that’s a future book for you or me?
OZ: Yes, maybe!
MT: So was the figure of Jesus, to a lesser or greater degree, part of your upbringing as a child?
OZ: Yes. But then, so were all the figures of Greek mythology as told in Ovid’s Metamorphosis—a significant and influential book in my childhood. I’ve always been fascinated with all myths and legends, and I explored those of the Bible as deeply as those of the Greeks, Egyptians, Celts, Norse, Hindu, etc. I had a perfect attendance record at Sunday school until I left home to go away to a college prep school for my senior year.
MT: Yes, I can totally relate to that. For me my earliest memories of the power of mythic epics were the Greek and Roman masterpieces. I was turned on to such literature years before I’d ever noticed the Bible’s stories. But can I ask, does the figure of Jesus feel important to you now, in any way at all?
OZ: Not particularly. I mean, I’m a Pagan, not a Christian. I think the figure of Merlin has always felt more important to me than that of Jesus.
MT: Do you consider Jesus to have been a historical person?
OZ: Yes, I think Jesus really lived.
MT: So when you imagine the historical Jesus, is his spirit reflected in the modern-day Church?
OZ: I don’t think his spirit is reflected at all in most modern-day Christian churches (with a few exceptions—perhaps the Quakers, Seventh-Day Adventists, Unitarians, Congregationalists, Unity, etc., might come closer … ). As a teenager, I took confirmation classes in my family’s church (Congregational), where the most important thing I learned was that “Christian” means “Christ-like.” So I always evaluate Christians by that criterion of comparison: “What was Christ actually like, and how closely does this person match?” Oddly, I find that most Pagans seem to be more “Christ-like” than most Christians! For the first three hundred years, it seems the early “Christian” churches were very much like many modern Pagan groups: small gatherings in different people’s homes—usually hosted and presided over by women; sharing simple lives revolving around love and caring for each other; a communion of bread and wine … All this prevailed up until the year 313, when Emperor Constantine (a right bastard!) proclaimed (via the Edict of Milan) Christianity to be the official religion of the Roman Empire. After that, the simple religion based on the life and teachings of the man Jesus did a 180-degree about-face, and became the creed of a ruthless and ambitious empire that would eventually result in crusades, inquisitions, and Witch-burnings. Poor Jesus must be spinning in his grave!
MT: What feelings or thoughts does the Christmas story conjure up in you?
OZ: Congruence with all the many identical stories in so many cultures of the infant Sun God born at the Winter Solstice from the womb of Night: Krishna, Horus, Mithras, Apollo, etc. Whole books have been written about this subject and I find them fascinating—the universality of this concept: light being born of darkness; the sun (Son) born on the longest, deepest, darkest night of the year. I always loved all the customs of Christmas/Yule as a child and growing up—and I was delighted to eventually discover that they are all Pagan in origin; unchanged over millennia. They put me in touch with the continuity of my ancestors—and with all cultures of the Northern Hemisphere who share these traditions.
MT: Ditto—Easter?
OZ: And ditto right back atcha! Even the name of the holiday has remained unchanged from Pagan times, as it is the name of the Goddess of Fertility: Eostra, Estre, Esther, Ishtar, Ostara, Astarte, Isis, Inanna, Aphrodite—the Eastern Star (the planet Venus). To this day we love to decorate Ostara eggs with our two-and-a-half-year-old granddaughter, and hide them for her to find. Again, all the symbols and customs of this day are thoroughly Pagan, commemorating this time the rebirth of life on the Earth—the return of vegetation (the Green Man and Maid), animal babies (the Red Man and Maid; the Horned God), etc. Time to plant our garden!
MT: If you have one, what is your favourite story, parable, teaching, or symbol of Jesus?
OZ: Well, let’s see, there’s a lot of good ones. The parable of the Good Samaritan is one I often reference in talking to Christians about Pagans (i.e., we Pagans are the kindly neighbours who are not of your religion, but are nonetheless good people). The parable of the Talents is a good one also (though I prefer the Hindu version in which the items are seeds rather than coins, and the wise son plants them, thus multiplying them vastly). And I particularly like the story in which Jesus is tempted by the Devil with Wealth, Fame, and Power—and he rejects all these, saying “Get thee behind me, Satan!” I think modern televangelists should be reminded of this one!
MT: Who do you suppose Jesus was? For example, a simple teacher, a divine prophet, a magician, or wizard etc.
OZ: I like to think of him as a classic Wizard, in the same tradition as countless others in countless other times, places, and cultures. That is, a wise one, a lore-master, and a superb teacher/mentor. But this does not preclude his also being all those other things: a miracle worker, a magician, a divine prophet, a valid deity of the Christian pantheon, and a simple Jewish teacher. I think of him as one of Us (i.e., Wizards). I only wish that his preaching/teaching career had lasted more than three years, that he hadn’t been martyred so early, and that he had taken the trouble to write his teachings down (a profound mistake that I am very aware of, and will not emulate!).
MT: And what lesson(s) do you feel the modern-day church needs to hear from the person/teaching of Jesus?
OZ: Reject wealth, fame, and power as temptations of the devil; “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”; “Love your neighbour as yourself”; “I say unto you, you are gods”; “The Kingdom of Heaven is within you”; “Judge not, lest you be judged.”
MT: Is it possible to be both Christian and Pagan? Why?
OZ: Well, many avowed Christo-Pagans seem to think so, and I would not presume to tell anyone else how to define their own faith! So if they say this is what they are, then it must be possible. My own father has reconciled my Paganism with his Christianity by coming to think of me as a “Pagan Christian,” and I do think that in most ways (excluding that whole bit about not lusting after women in my heart … ) I probably am more “Christ-like” than the vast majority of declared Christians. Certainly more so than those who lust after wealth, fame, and power!
MT: What, if anything, can modern-day Pagans learn from the message/person of Jesus?
OZ: Do not lust after wealth, fame, and power; “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”; “Love your neighbour as yourself”; “I say unto you, you are gods”; “The Kingdom of Heaven is within you”; “Judge not, lest you be judged.” Lead a simple life, treat others right, be inclusive rather than exclusive in your associations and friendships, and illustrate your teachings with really good stories!
MT: And what, if anything, can Christians learn from modern-day
Paganism?
OZ: Do not lust after wealth, fame, and power; Do as you would be done by; Love unconditionally; “Everything is alive and everything is interconnected”; divinity is immanent as well as transcendent, i.e., “thou art God/dess”; We are all children of the same mother; revere and honour women, nature, and all things female; “The Kingdom of Heaven is within you”—and so is the Queendom of Earth; cherish diversity; cultivate compassion and empathy; eschew hatred, intolerance, and all desire for retribution, retaliation, revenge or punishment; condemn not, lest you be condemned; attune your life with the cycles of the seasons; grow a garden; lead a simple life; treat others right; be inclusive rather than exclusive in your associations and friendships. And always capitalize the proper nouns and adjectives referring to other people’s religions!
MT: Finally, as the headmaster of a Wizard school, I wanted to ask you one more question from that perspective. Is that okay with you?
OZ: Sure, fire away.
MT: Well I believe you teach a certain amount of “illusion” to your Grey School students. In fact, one of my Magician/Illusionist teachers (Jeff McBride) is on your faculty. Yet some Pagans see both magics as complementary, whereas others seem to see them as opposing forces. Do you have anything to say about this?
OZ: I consider illusion magics to be in the category of “special effects” to enhance rituals, storytelling, and other magickal acts. Thus I see them as complementary rather than oppositional to other types of magick. Any Wizard worth his salt in the old days would be expected to perform illusions at the drop of a hat (or the request of a king)! For instance, when I get up at a campfire to tell a story, I may wave my hand over the fire, and colored sparkles will arise from it. Then I’ll reach into the fire and pull out a glowing coal, which I’ll hold up in my fingertips. Then I’ll make a loose fist with my other hand, stick the thumb in my mouth as if it were a pipe, and insert the glowing coal. I may then take a few puffs, with the pipe glowing each time, lighting up my face. And then I’ll open my hands to show there is nothing in them. And now that I have everyone’s attention, this will lead into a story.
MT: Marvelous. I’d love to be able to see that some day. Well, Oberon, it has been a pleasure and a delight talking to you over these things. I’m sure what you’ve said will ring many bells for many people. Thank you once again for you time and your wisdom.
OZ: You’re more than welcome, Mark.
About the Author
Oberon Zell-Ravenheart co-founded the Church of All Worlds in 1962. First to apply the term “Pagan” to the newly emerging Nature Religions of the 1960s, and through thirty years of publishing Green Egg, Oberon was instrumental in the coalescence of the Neopagan movement. In 1970, he formulated and published the theology of deep ecology that has become known as “the Gaia Thesis.” Oberon is the primary sculptor of the Mythic Images Collection (www.MythicImages.com), and author of Grimoire for the Apprentice Wizard. He is Headmaster of the online Grey School of Wizardry: www.GreySchool.com.