The Book of Romance

Song of Solomon 6:4–13

Marital disagreements, arguments, and conflicts are inevitable.

Why?

Because marriage vows do not erase differences in individual personalities, opinions, ideas, and past histories. No matter how much of a union a couple may achieve physically, socially, sexually, materially, and spiritually, each spouse continues to maintain a unique personality. Each spouse continues to have an identity, a degree of self-esteem, and specific gifts and talents that flow from God and are intended to be used for God’s purposes.

When two people marry, their individual identities do not disappear. Rather, their two identities blend together to create a greater, richer, and more wonderful whole. This blending of differences into a unique and appealing new entity requires that some parts of each individual be sanded away or refined so that the two people might complement each other in all ways and so that their home might function with efficiency and be overflowing in Christian ministry.

Conflict is inevitable; resolution is not. It is to be highly desired, sought after, and prayed for. It is something to be set as a goal any time conflict arises. Resolution is not automatic. It doesn’t happen over time or by accident. For a conflict to be resolved, there must be an intentional desire for reconciliation followed by reconciliatory acts. Resolution requires effort, time, and a certain degree of skill.

Conflicts often happen through carelessness; they occur by accident. Resolution takes place when both persons care enough to work hard to achieve it. Resolution occurs on purpose.

In the last chapter, we covered the first three stages in marital conflicts and their resolution:

1. A feeling of harm, hurt, or injury on the part of both persons.

2. A change of heart on the part of the one who initiated the conflict.

3. A desire on the part of both persons for the conflict to end.

Each of these first three stages deals primarily with conflict—an awareness of the conflict, a response to the conflict, and a desire in the heart to resolve the conflict. In this chapter, we will focus on what the couple did to bring about resolution.

STAGE FOUR: COMMUNICATION

Most marriage conflicts tend to arise from one of five sources: (1) a failure of communication, (2) financial difficulties, (3) sexual difficulties, (4) problems with in-laws, or (5) disagreements about child rearing. Furthermore, marital conflicts pretty much occur in this descending order. A failure in communication or, perhaps better stated, poor communication accounts for the majority of the problems I see as a pastoral counselor.

For resolution to occur, good, satisfying communication must take place between the two people in conflict. That happened in the Song of Solomon. As soon as Solomon’s bride found Solomon, communication took place. They did not stand and stare at each other in silence. They did not tiptoe around each other, looking for something to say to break the ice. Solomon spoke to his bride. What he had to say to his bride was extremely important, but we’ll deal with that a little later. For now, the main point I want to convey is that communication is vital to a good marriage. A conflict does not resolve itself in silence—the conflict simply goes underground, just under the surface of behavior in the relationship, where it will fester and continue to be a source of irritation in the heart of one or both spouses.

In the premarital counseling sessions that I conduct with engaged couples, I look very closely at the way the two people relate to each other in my office. It’s amazing what I can tell by watching and listening. I can tell if one or both of them are uncomfortable discussing a certain topic, if one dominates the conversation (and very likely the relationship), or if one or both are quick to display anger or a defensive attitude, or to fall silent in a pout. If such communication problems are evident at this stage of a relationship, I can guarantee they will extend beyond the wedding vows into marriage. I advise the couple to work more on their communication before they proceed with their wedding plans.

Let me share with you the sixteen axiomatic “nevers” that I believe are integral for good communication between spouses when conflict occurs.

1. Never Speak Rashly

Weigh your words before you speak, especially if you are feeling emotionally upset about a situation or circumstance. Back away and give your endocrine system a chance to return to normal. Always keep in mind that it’s not only what you say that matters, but how and when you speak.

Proverbs 27:14 offers this admonition: “He who blesses his friend with a loud voice, rising early in the morning, it will be counted a curse to him.” This blessing actually refers to a shout that awakens and disturbs a friend. The person who does that will not have his day go well, for the “friend” will surely seek retaliation. In other words, it’s great to call out a friendly hello to a friend, just not at 5:00 A.M. directly below his bedroom window.

Very often in a marriage, a person reacts to how a person speaks far more than to what is said. An angry, belittling, or hateful tone of voice is going to bring about a response, even if what is said is rather benign. The more benign the content of such communication, the more the statement is going to be perceived as sarcasm or cynicism, which also brings about a negative response in most people. Proverbs 15:1 tells us, “A harsh word stirs up anger.”

2. Never Confront Your Mate Publicly

Have you ever watched or overheard a couple argue in a public place, perhaps at the table next to you in a restaurant? You feel sorry for both persons—the one who is the recipient of an angry harangue and the one who is engaging in such terrible behavior because that person doesn’t realize how much embarrassment he is bringing upon himself. Jesus taught, “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone” (Matt. 18:15).

If you have an issue to bring up with your spouse, do so in the privacy of your home.

3. Never Confront Your Spouse in Your Children’s Presence

Your children in no way benefit from watching the two of you quarrel. They will invariably respond more to the tone of your disagreement than to what is being said. They will feel defensive for themselves and defensive for the spouse they feel is getting a verbal lashing. They are likely to disrespect both parents for engaging in this behavior, either at the time or in later years. As a parent, you have the job of modeling good communication before your children. Heated arguments or confrontational, combative, critical statements are not good communication for children to copy. Proverbs 17:1 affirms, “Better is a dry morsel with quietness, than a house full of feasting with strife.” A tense home will make a boy long for his driver’s license so he can be free of it. A young girl will long for some man to remove her from it—all too often, the wrong man.

4. Never Use Your Children in the Conflict

Sometimes parents ask one of their children to side with them in an argument, to help them in their defense, or even to lie for them. Again, this is not modeling good communication skills or good conflict resolution. A child needs the assurance that both parents love each other and are able to resolve their differences by themselves. To ask a child to side with one parent is to put the child in an extremely awkward and undesirable position.

Too many people I know have been pulled between their parents like a rope in a tug-of-war match. They resent the fact that their parents did that to them and they feel less respect for both parents as a result.

5. Never Say “Never” or “Always”

The tendency in a conflict is to take an issue to the extreme: “You always do this,” or “You never do that.” Very few things in life happen in never or always terms. It’s far more productive to say, “I don’t appreciate it when . . .” or “I feel bad when you . . .” and then state the specific behavior. Don’t generalize or use broad terms. Be specific in citing behavior.

Never and always are terms that polarize and define a person. Stay neutral in your emotions. Don’t push your argument, or your spouse, to an extreme position.

6. Never Resort to Name-Calling

Name-calling in an argument is a form of generalization, which is never productive or accurate. Name-calling is always negative in tone and negative in effect. A name-caller cites a weakness or flaw in the other person and exaggerates it. The way to resolution in conflict is to become specific and to take the heat and hurt out of one’s spoken words. Name-calling is a surefire way to turn up both the heat and the hurt in an argument.

7. Never Get Historical

You may be thinking, Don’t you mean hysterical, Tommy? No, historical. Don’t dredge up the past. In recalling past sins and applying them to the most recent bad behavior or error, you are sending a strong signal to your spouse that you are not a forgiving person. A truly forgiving person endeavors not only to forgive, but also to forget. Although you may not ever truly be able to forget an incident, you can forget to bring it up. I’m always amazed when a person can recall in a counseling session, “Don’t you remember five years ago when you . . . ?” Such statements tell me that the person who is making them is bitter and angry at a very deep level. The bitterness and anger are far more important to address than any act of misbehavior, error, or sin committed five years ago.

8. Never Stomp Out of the Room or Leave

This is a form of domination, a form of gaining victory, and it will produce nothing but unresolved and heightened anger.

9. Never Raise Your Voice in Anger

Anger turns any statement into a sin and any discussion into an unresolved debate. It is a primitive form of winning the argument. If anger creeps into a conversation or discussion, the anger must first be addressed, defused, and forgiven before any other issue can be dealt with. Proverbs 16:21 asserts, “Sweetness of the lips increases learning,” and Proverbs 16:24 adds, “Pleasant words are like a honeycomb, sweetness to the soul and health to the bones.” A quiet, sweet tone of voice makes a person much more persuasive and brings about a much better attitude in the person who is listening.

10. Never Bring Family Members into the Discussion Unless They Are a Direct Part of the Problem Being Addressed

In other words, never say to a person, “You are just like your father,” or “Your mother does this and it drives me nuts, and now you’re doing it too.” Regardless of the accuracy of your statement, your spouse is going to be defensive about his or her parents. Very little can be accomplished in a discussion if parents or in-laws are brought into the discussion because they will then become the focal point of the argument.

11. Never Win Through Reasoning or Logic and Never Out-Argue

Arguments are fueled by a competitive spirit that insists upon winning. Conflicts are resolved when one person chooses willfully to “lose” or to abandon a position and yield to the other person. Nothing is more disrespectful than to disregard the feelings of your mate with cold logic as if your mate’s pain is foolish and imagined.

Is this a doormat position? No. To the contrary. It is a godly position. Repeatedly through the New Testament we find admonitions that we are to submit to other believers.

Rather than to defend a position of personal “right,” we are to submit our personal rights to a greater position of seeking unity and harmony within the body of Christ.

When you win a conflict, and do so repeatedly, you are likely to lose a mate. Press to resolve, but not to achieve victory.

Resolution means that both persons come to a position where they feel that their feelings and ideas have been expressed, understood, and valued, and then a decision is made that accommodates as best as possible the feelings and ideas of both persons. There are no winners or losers. Rather, there is the advancement of the relationship to a new level of understanding and agreement, usually with compromise by both persons.

This is not to say that we are to compromise with evil. If a spouse is intent on engaging in evil behavior that involves both spouses or the family as a whole, there is no way that the other spouse should contribute to or accommodate that behavior. Seek every means possible of convincing your spouse that what he is about to do is unrighteous before God and dangerous to the integrity of your marriage and family. Make every appeal you can make to the person to turn away from evil and toward the things of God. Pray diligently and fervently that God will drop the scales of deceit from your spouse’s eyes so that he might see clearly the full ramifications of what is being done and come to himself, and in the process, repent of his ungodly behavior. If you continually win arguments your mate will lose heart, go silent, and emotionally withdraw.

12. Never Be Condescending

Arguments are rarely resolved if one person adopts a “know it all” or “better than thou” attitude. If condescending behavior is manifested in a public setting, the spouse who is being talked down to is likely to be angry and embarrassed.

Whether you are husband or wife, your role in marriage is to build up, to edify, to strengthen, and to genuinely praise the goodness of God in your spouse. A condescending attitude does just the opposite—it tears down a person and weakens him in his own eyes and in the eyes of others.

13. Never Demean

Some people don’t condescend in tone; they demean in actual content of their communication. There was nothing at all condescending about the tone of one man who sat in my pastoral counseling office as he said very matter-of-factly, “My wife isn’t well educated and doesn’t know about these things.” He had no idea that he was hurting his wife in making a statement like that. He could hardly fathom the fact that she was embarrassed and upset by his remark, which he perceived to be a simple fact. He even said to me, “I’m telling the truth, and if the truth hurts a little, so be it. You’ve got to face the truth.”

Much truth in our world never needs to be said. And there is no greater truth than this: we are to love one another at all times. If telling the truth to a person clashes with expressing love to that person, err on the side of expressing love. There is no excuse at any time for demeaning a person. Rather, focus on all of the good qualities and traits that God has put into your spouse. Build up these attributes. Praise the good. You may be amazed to see how the bad pales into the background of your relationship.

A tone of voice can also be demeaning if it causes another person to feel humiliation or embarrassment. I was in a conversation with a man and his wife. For no apparent reason, the wife dropped her eyeglasses as we talked. Then a few minutes after she had picked them up, she dropped them again. At that point, her husband turned to her and said in an extremely demeaning tone of voice, “Put those glasses on your face and keep ’em there, or I’m gonna break ’em!” I watched her shrivel emotionally in our presence. I wanted to do my own lashing out at him. He was acting like a bully, and in the end, he was demeaning himself by making such remarks about his wife.

14. Never Accuse Your Spouse with “You” Statements

Arguments escalate when you continually point to the other person and say such things as, “You did this,” “You said that,” “You caused this,” or “You are a rotten person.” You have taken on the roles of both judge and jury. Instead, couch your statements in “I” terms: “I heard this and I need to know if I heard you correctly,” “I don’t understand what you mean when you say . . . ,” or “I felt this way when I heard what you said.”

15. Never Allow an Argument to Begin If Both of You Are Overly Tired, If One of You Is Under the Influence of Chemicals, or If One of You Is Physically Ill

Abigail, the wife of a foolish man named Nabal, had the good sense not to tell her husband what a grievous error he had made until he was sober enough to hear her fully. (See 1 Sam. 25.) A person who is physically ill, is under the influence of alcohol, drugs, or heavy-duty prescription medications, or is exhausted physically or emotionally cannot engage in a reasonable, logical, rational conversation. If your spouse lashes out at you while he or she is drunk, extremely tired, or ill, wait until the context changes before you respond or bring up an issue for discussion. One noted speaker on marriage has given this advice: never start an argument after ten o’clock at night.

16. Never Touch Your Spouse in a Harmful Manner

No grabbing, no slapping, no shaking, no pushing, no strong-arming. Rough physical treatment is never justifiable.

LISTENING IS JUST AS IMPORTANT
AS SPEAKING

Each of the statements of advice just given relates to what a person should and should not say or do in times of conflict. It is equally important that a person know how to listen in times of conflict. There are times when silence is even more important than speaking. Let me share with you five pieces of advice about listening.

1. Listen with Patience Until Your Spouse Speaks

Don’t force a quiet mate to talk. Sometimes a person needs time to digest an experience or a statement. Don’t force your spouse to respond immediately to what you say.

2. Listen with Your Face

Men have the ability to listen and do other things at the same time. Their wives do not find this the least bit satisfying. A woman wants to feel that she has her husband’s undivided attention. Look at your wife when she speaks. Look into her eyes. Give her your full attention.

My wife, Teresa, taught me this. One day when she was talking to me and she perceived that I was not paying close enough attention to her, she pulled my face around to hers so that we were looking at each other eyeball-to-eyeball, and she said, “Listen to me with your face, Tommy.” I did, and I do. Often a woman needs only to express her heart. She doesn’t need answers or a logical evaluation, only consideration.

3. Listen Until Your Spouse Has Finished Speaking

Don’t interrupt, and don’t hem and haw while your spouse is speaking. Husband, if your wife wants to talk about something that you don’t care to talk about, choose to talk about the matter anyway. It may seem unimportant or trivial to you, but it isn’t unimportant or trivial to her. Give her the respect of hearing her out on whatever topic she feels a need to vent or voice an opinion. Proverbs 18:13 offers good advice: “He who answers a matter before he hears it, it is folly and shame to him.”

A very upset woman called me one day. She and her husband had had a verbal disagreement, and he had walked out on her while she was talking. He just stomped off in anger, not wanting to hear what she had to say. She was angry, hurt, and a little fearful that he might never return. He did, of course, acting as if nothing had occurred between them. That only confused and hurt her all the more.

The next time I saw the man in a counseling situation, I said, “Don’t ever do that again.” He tried to shrug off the incident as unimportant. I said, “This is not a minor problem. It’s a potential cancer eating away at your relationship. Stay in the room and hear what your wife has to say. Don’t walk out. She may have some valuable information to share with you that can be of benefit to you, not only in your marriage but in your other relationships. And even if what she shares with you isn’t all that beneficial or important, you will at least have heard all that she has to say so that you are mulling over her full message when you reflect on the matter later.” Remember, every person deems his or her opinion to be important.

4. Listen and Then File Away What You Hear in the Closet of Privacy

What is said in times of marital conflict should be said in privacy and kept in privacy. Don’t vent your spleen to others outside your marriage. Women, don’t go to the other women in the beauty shop and talk about your “worthless mate.” Guys, don’t escape to the club and talk about your “sorry wife.” Don’t try to drum up support for your position in an argument outside your marriage. Two things will result. First, those to whom you speak will think less of your spouse and, ultimately, less of you for talking about your spouse. Second, when you share private matters related to your marriage with others outside your marriage, you damage the trust level of your spouse.

The only “outside” person to whom you may talk about conflicts in your marriage should be a professional counselor— Christian psychologist or pastoral counselor—who will keep all that you say in strictest confidence. All others should be kept out of the arena of your arguments or disagreements, especially parents who will probably wreak judgment on the one who has harmed their darling.

5. Listen Without Rude Body Language

Some spouses say, “Okay, I’ll sit down and listen to you,” but everything about their body language and facial gestures indicates, “I think this is a waste of time and there’s no reason for this,” or “I won’t give anything you say much weight, and I may not even believe you.” Smirks, facial grimaces, turned shoulders, and aggressive stares are all acts that fuel a conflict rather than defuse it.

Choose to listen to your mate with a mind open to learning and growing. Listen with your whole heart. Listen with a sincere intent to communicate fully and to bring a matter to reconciliation.

How you listen and how you greet a spouse the next time you encounter your mate after a disagreement will greatly determine whether a conflict ends quickly or extends over time.

STAGE FIVE: FORGIVENESS

Much can happen in a very short period if one person will make a positive move toward breaking an icy silence or cooling off a heated discussion.

In the conflict between Solomon and his bride, we might have written one of these two scenarios as the next phase:

1. The bride came very apologetically to her husband, he stood in silence until she apologized fully, and then he forgave her.

2. The bride came to him and before she could say anything, the husband lashed out at her for what she had done wrong. In her repentant frame of mind, she took his scolding in silence and then asked for forgiveness, which he granted.

The Song of Solomon, however, presents a very different approach. We have a wonderful example of how God desires for us to reconcile our differences and to deal with a spouse who has hurt us. Solomon greeted his spouse by saying,

O my love, you are as beautiful as Tirzah,
Lovely as Jerusalem,
Awesome as an army with banners!
Turn your eyes away from me,
For they have overcome me.
Your hair is like a flock of goats
Going down from Gilead.
Your teeth are like a flock of sheep
Which have come up from the washing;
Every one bears twins,
And none is barren among them.
Like a piece of pomegranate
Are your temples behind your veil. (Song 6:4–7)

Rather than displaying silence in expectation of an apology or an angry response, Solomon greeted his bride with genuine compliments, telling her essentially, “You are as lovely as I remember you on our wedding night, and I respect you fully as my wife. You are my delight [which is the literal meaning of the word Tirzah] and my soul’s refuge of peace [which is the literal meaning of Jerusalem]. I feel the same excitement in your presence as I have always felt, just as much excitement as a kid watching a parade with banners and pageantry!”

Solomon spoke to his wife in the same terms that he used on their wedding night, noting very specific aspects of her beauty—her eyes, her smile, her blush. She was so beautiful that he stated he could not concentrate on what he was saying. He asked her to turn away her eyes because they confused him. What reinforcement! He concluded,

There are sixty queens
And eighty concubines,
And virgins without number.
My dove, my perfect one,
Is the only one,
The only one of her mother,
The favorite of the one who bore her.
The daughters saw her
And called her blessed,
The queens and the concubines,
And they praised her.
Who is she who looks forth as the morning,
Fair as the moon,
Clear as the sun,
Awesome as an army with banners? (Song 6:8–10)

In a nutshell, Solomon was conveying to his bride that in his eyes, she was the only woman in the world who mattered to him. She was one of a kind in his love. She had no equal.

What was Solomon doing? He was forgiving his bride even before she had a chance to ask for forgiveness. He was granting her a full reconciliation and a full pardon for any offense she might have committed against him.

She was already feeling repentant, but Solomon didn’t know that. He forgave her out of the generosity of his heart. He freely forgave, without demanding an apology or penance for her misdeeds. His bride no doubt fully accepted the generous outpouring of forgiveness and was grateful for it.

Nothing brings about reconciliation quicker in a relationship than these two elements: (1) a repentant heart on the part of the person who has wronged another, and (2) a heart overflowing with unconditional love and forgiveness on the part of the person who has been wronged.

In any conflict, each spouse is wise to have a repentant and a forgiving heart. You likely have been partly wrong—be fully repentant. And then, be fully forgiving for whatever wrong your mate has committed against you. A couple who adopts this stance toward conflict will have a marriage in which conflicts are likely to be very brief and quickly healed. Each spouse must determine in his or her own heart, “When conflicts arise, I will choose not to hurt my mate, but if any hurt results, I will take responsibility for that hurt, I will repent for causing hurt, and I will fully forgive my spouse for any wrong done to me.”

Solomon took this stance toward his bride: “I can’t even remember what you did.” He forgave in such a way that he chose not to file away the incident in his memory bank so that he might bring it up at a later time. He put the incident behind him and was facing toward their future.

I have met couples who seem to pick at a situation over and over, almost like vultures on a carcass. They remind each other of past hurts, mistakes, and even foibles as if desiring to keep alive a painful insult or incident. Let such things go!

If you forgive, then forgive fully. Don’t bring up the hurtful incident in the future. Move on with your lives.

“Isn’t this sweeping an issue under the rug?” you may ask.

No, it’s bringing a hurtful situation to its death and burying it. This is not denial or a Pollyanna attitude toward pain. It is forgiveness, which is very active, very intentional, very positive, and very courageous.

Clara Barton, the founder of the Red Cross in the United States, was once asked about a negative incident in her life in which Clara had been hurt. She responded to her questioner, “I distinctly remember forgetting that.” What an important attitude to have in extending forgiveness.

Genuine forgiveness must be freely and fully granted. It is an act of unwarranted, generous mercy. Solomon’s bride received such forgiveness:

I went down to the garden of nuts
To see the verdure of the valley,
To see whether the vine had budded
And the pomegranates had bloomed.
Before I was even aware,
My soul had made me
As the chariots of my noble people. (Song 6:11–12)

She said, “I went to find out if there was still hope for fruitfulness in our relationship, and before I knew it, my soul—my love, my husband, Solomon—had fully forgiven me!”

In the Hebrew culture, one of the highest forms of recognition and reconciliation that could be granted to another person was to ask that person to ride with you in your chariot. It was a sign of total trust as well as a public display of relationship between the two of you. We have an example in the Bible when Ahab, the king of Israel, was condemned by God for allowing a Syrian enemy to ride in his chariot with him. Ahab’s act indicated that he was in league with the Syrians, that they were one in purpose, and that they had formed an alliance. (See 1 Kings 20:33.)

When Solomon’s bride gave reference to chariots, she was stating that she knew she had been fully restored to the heart of her husband and furthermore, that her relationship with her husband was strong, for chariots were a picture of might. She experienced full confidence that she had the love of her husband and that they were at peace.

That’s what forgiveness does in any relationship, especially in the aftermath of conflict. It restores confidence to both persons that the marriage is strong enough to endure conflict, and it brings about genuine peace in the hearts of both mates. True reconciliation is marked by an atmosphere of rest and comfort—not a stiff, stilted, or uncomfortable silence, but genuine freedom and peace.

STAGE SIX: GREATER CLOSENESS AND JOY

The final stage of conflict resolution is one of greater closeness and joy between the two spouses. Have you ever heard someone say, “Fighting is bad, but making up makes it all worth it”? There is some truth to that statement. We read in the Song of Solomon:

Return, return, O Shulamite;
Return, return, that we may look upon you!
What would you see in the Shulamite—
As it were, the dance of the two camps? (Song 6:13)

“Shulamite” was the nickname for the bride. It was a takeoff on the name of Solomon, which in Hebrew is Shlomo, a word related to shalom, the word for peace and wholeness. It would be as if someone called my wife “Tomasina”—the diminutive or feminine of Tom. Calling the bride the Shulamite was a way of saying, “She is one with Solomon.” They were close—so close that they couldn’t be separated. She was part of him.

What about “the dance of the two camps”? When a couple experience genuine forgiveness in the aftermath of conflict, they are drawn even more tightly or closely together. Solomon and his bride experienced an even greater intimacy and joy in the aftermath of conflict—they rejoiced as if they were having a private party, a dance.

Paul wrote to the Romans, “Where sin abounded, grace abounded much more” (Rom. 5:20). Let that be the truth of your marriage any time a conflict arises. Choose to forgive with a generosity that far exceeds the wrong that has been done to you. Choose to be repentant to a degree far greater than the wrong you have done. Let your coming together in an atmosphere of forgiveness result in a mutuality of joy and a greater warmth and intimacy in your love.

Conflict will arise. Resolution can be achieved. And if done with free-flowing forgiveness and unconditional love as the central features of reconciliation, the resolution of a conflict can result in a marriage that is stronger and more vibrant than before the conflict arose. In many ways, a strong marriage is the result of repeated, healthy conflict resolutions over time.

Don’t be discouraged or fearful when conflicts arise. Use them as building stones toward an even more wonderful marriage relationship. On the heels of this conflict and resolution we will see marriage at its most intimate.

Questions to Think About or Discuss

1. Are you and your beloved able to achieve satisfying resolutions to the conflicts that arise between you?

2. Do the arguments between you and your beloved have a winner and a loser?

3. What wrongs do you find difficult to forgive or forget?

4. In what areas do you need to improve your communication— both listening and speaking?