24 July 2000
On 8 June 2000 Ahmad-Hadji Kadyrov was appointed by President Putin to head the provisional administration of the Chechen Republic. Born in Karaganda, Kazakhstan, in 1951 he studied at the agricultural college in Sernovodsk (Chechnya) and at the construction institute in Novosibirsk, but failed to graduate from either. In the 1980s he received a religious education in Central Asia, attending the medresseh (Koranic school) in Bukhara and the Tashkent Institute of Islam. Since 1991 he has lived in Chechnya, becoming the republic's deputy Mufti in 1993 and Mufti in 1995.
Q. There have been many different leaders in Chechnya over the last ten years – someone, you might say, to suit everyone's taste: Dudayev, Zavgayev, Khadjiev, Maskhadov and Koshman. Now you. Every time a new leader arrived, the people heard enticing words about the happy future that was just round the corner. But it never came. Instead, they faced poverty and violent death. What are the main tasks of the new Kadyrov regime?
A. My task is to save the Chechen nation from the path that it has repeatedly been deceived into following for the last 300–400 years. Each imam who came to our land, once every 50 or 100 years, would incite the Chechens to begin a jihad.55 He'd promise them paradise on earth, then abandon the nation before it ever reached this goal. I speak from experience. I was drawn into such a jihad. We shall gain our freedom, I thought, develop our republic and start to live well.
And at first everything indeed seemed to end in victory for the Chechen people. In 1996 the federal forces withdrew, we held elections and President Maskhadov had all the power in his hands.
I did a great deal to ensure this happened and consider his election to be my personal achievement. Without me the elections would never have taken place. After that all Maskhadov had to do was preserve the reputation the Chechens had won after the first war; the Arab and Muslim world were then simply in raptures over us. But Maskhadov failed in this, as in so much else. Gradually people lost confidence. He allowed ordinary people to be robbed. He should have sent away all the mujahedin who had come from abroad, but he didn't.
Q. How could he? If you fight in a war you always expect your share of the booty.
A. It's very simple. He should have told them: "If, as you say, Allah led you to join us then we are very grateful. We owe you nothing, and you've already stored up enough wealth in paradise. Off you go." Instead we let them take enormous liberties, gave them oil wells and they brought criminals here from all over the world. Finally, the assault on Daghestan began and the federal troops entered Chechnya. Once again Maskhadov did nothing to stop the war, though he was given the chance: I appealed to him, and so did Moscow.
I personally witnessed the phone conversation between Voloshin, the Head of the Presidential Staff, and Alsultanov, then Chechnya's Deputy Premier, who was actually in Maskhadov's office. "If you make an announcement that you condemn terrorism," said Voloshin, "then a meeting with Yeltsin can take place." Maskhadov replied: "I won't say any such thing. It's only the Russians, only Moscow, who need me to say it." It is my conviction that Maskhadov abandoned the Chechen nation after the first war.
Hence my main goal today: the nation must no longer be left stranded half-way; no longer must it be deceived by this "independence" and "liberty" that no one has ever actually given us and never will. Freedom, in fact, is something the ordinary man – and I count myself one, I come from a very modest peasant family – does not need. He needs work and in return a wage and security.
Q. That's just what no one here, apart from yourself, possesses at the moment. You have a job, you're paid a salary for doing it and your personal security is assured by your own bodyguards, supplemented by members of the Alfa group [elite FSB commandos, Tr.] disguised as Chechens. You're taken by helicopter to work in Gudermes from your home in Tsentoroi village and then flown back again. Meanwhile Grozny is stricken with hunger and infectious diseases; there is no water, gas or electricity but a great many mentally disturbed people. In the villages entire families are now suffering from tuberculosis.
A. That's the price you pay for phoney freedom.
Q. You're saying that as long as you're in power the idea of an independent Chechnya will never be discussed?
A. There will be no discussions, no ideas of that kind. Today all that people want is an end to the shooting. Simply not to be robbed or killed. Of course, when everything settles down they'll want to get back to work. And they'll need jobs and wages. That will be freedom for Chechnya. I take Ingushetia and Daghestan as an example. They're also Muslims and they're in no hurry to go anywhere else; they don't let themselves be deceived. But we Chechens, I wouldn't say we're stupid, but we are more warlike than other nations and have allowed our warrior instinct and ourselves to be exploited. Now I want to obtain a document from Moscow that guarantees that we'll be left alone for 40–50 years.
Q. You want some kind of "safe conduct" from the Kremlin?
A. That's right. All we have been doing for the last 300–400 years is to devalue our worth as a nation. The best and bravest people, after all, the most honourable, the real patriots, are the ones who go off to war. They are offered ideas, deceived by them, and they perish. I must stop all that. In this document it must state that our people are the main treasure of the nation and no ideas should be allowed to lead them off to war. This document is necessary so that, at any moment, any new leader who wants to start a war could be told: "You mustn't get us involved, we have lost so much already."
Q. But you're hardly a pacifist, are you? You yourself declared a jihad against Moscow. What now? Are you revoking it? Are you going back on your vow to Allah?
A. I declared a jihad during the last war. And it finished of its own accord with the Khasavyurt Agreements in 1996.56 That's my view. When the war ended and we decided to build an Islamic State we had no right to fight with anyone else and infringe the rights of neighbouring nations. However, we invaded Daghestan, thereby going against Sharia law. That's why I have said we are guilty of starting this war. And in 1999 I did not declare a jihad. So there is no jihad today.
Q. In the future Chechnya for which you now bear responsibility, what place is allotted to Islam?
A. All Chechens are Muslims. But Chechnya should not be an Islamic republic. I consider that Islam should occupy the same place with us as it does in Ingushetia and Daghestan. They have as many medresseh and mosques as they need and no one is oppressed. To call it all an "Islamic republic" is unnecessary. We once described ourselves in that way and did everything that goes against Islam. What good did it do us, marching under a green flag? Did we help Islam? No, in fact we were driving Muslims away from Islam! We were pushing the nation towards extremism. All these Taleban, Wahhabites and other tendencies are against Islam. They were deliberately encouraged by those who wanted the world to equate Islam with terrorism.
Q. Have I understood you correctly? You're saying that what Aushev has done in Ingushetia is a model for you?
A. Yes. At a recent meeting with the governors from the Southern Area, attended by both Kazantsev and Aushev,57 I said just that in front of everyone; "Aushev is a very clever lad. When he understood in 1991–2 what Jokhar [Dudayev] wanted to do in Chechnya, he broke away. Today Ingushetia is flourishing and we're a catastrophe."
Q. Do you see Aushev and talk to him?
A. Not since the beginning of this war.
Q. Public opinion considers you to be fiercely opposed to Aushev. You are always running him down in public statements.
A. Aushev must understand me. I want to save my nation.
Q. But Aushev is also saving the Chechen nation. When do you think those several hundred thousand refugees now in Ingushetia will have enough confidence that you are really in control to return to Chechnya?
A. Some figures, first. Aushev constantly talks about 214,000 refugees. But I sent my own commission to Ingushetia and they found no more than 115,000 refugees there.
Q. Does that really make any difference?
A. Before winter I want to move all refugees to my own territory and set up temporary tent settlements for them in the Sholkovskaya and Naurskaya districts. I'm confident that Moscow will provide serious and rapid aid. Not the present kind of support. Every day for us, after all, is like a year.
Q. How are you going to deal with what people call the "Wahhabite" problem?
A. There is no alternative but to root it out.
Q. But you can't destroy a single idea in someone's head, except by decapitating him.
A. Exactly. Anyone who will not admit that he is wrong and will not turn back, will meet such an end. Anyway there are no convinced ideological Wahhabites in Chechnya, only people who have been misled or have sold their support.
Q. What about the suicide-bombers? They're not ideological?
A. They aren't fundamentalists but zombies. They've simply been hypnotised and stuffed full of drugs. No normal person would do such a thing. Islam strictly forbids suicide. Unending punishment by Allah awaits the suicide-bombers until Judgement Day: every time they blow themselves up, they will be brought back to life so as to be blown to pieces again.
Q. Who is explaining this to people today after a series of such terrorist attacks?
A. I told the nation this on television. [The television broadcasting station in Gudermes, where Kadyrov's official residence is located, broadcasts only to the population of that small town, AP.]
Q. What are you today? A mullah or an official?
A. I would like to consider myself a human being. But since I now head the administration of the Chechen Republic, I am an official.
Q. Who is the present Mufti of Chechnya?
A. No one as yet. I have already summoned all the imams and said: "I cannot be both Mufti and head of the administration. Choose someone new." For the time being they have not agreed on a single candidate. Personally I would like to see Ahmad Shamayev, the imam of the Shatoi district, as Mufti. His greatest merit is that he will tell everyone the truth. If need be, Putin himself. Every day he says what he thinks to those who walk past him, fully armed, knowing quite well that they could kill him as they murdered the imams in Urus-Martan and Alkhan-Kala.
Q. Are you trying to talk to Maskhadov now, to make him change his mind?
A. We don't talk directly: he fires a missile, I fire one back. We don't meet face to face.
Q. What's stopping you?
A. He wouldn't understand my reasons even if I asked him to meet. But if he wants to meet me, I shall not refuse.
Q. Why don't you take the first step? What's the problem?
A. What good is he to me? He controls nothing. Basayev acts on his own, Khattab acts on his own, and so does Maskhadov. He's got money but no power. The field commanders are a law to themselves. They come to me and we talk about them giving themselves up.
Q. But when will Turpal Atgiriev give himself up, for example? It's now two weeks since you supposedly agreed that he and his 200 followers would lay down their arms.58
A. I heard that I'd reached such an agreement from the television. Turpal's people certainly came to me and suggested a meeting, but I refused.
Q. Why?
A. I don't trust him.
Q. What should he do to make you trust him and include him in the amnesty?
A. He must not turn people against me.
Q. Which other field commanders, if not Atgiriev, have already surrendered to you?
A. Brigadier General Ali Sultanov from Shali. At one time he was Maskhadov's deputy premier. Ali was seriously wounded and went abroad for treatment.
Q. How many fighters did he bring with him?
A. There was no surrender of weapons as such by his group. He simply came, we talked and he made an official announcement.
Q. So his detachment continues to fight?
A. Today there are only very small detachments. Only the big names remain. Even Mohammed Khambiev, who was Maskhadov's Minister of Defence, has less than a dozen men. If Khambiev announces that he's surrendering and we tell him to bring in his fighters he'd have no one to bring. And Khambiev himself has hardly left home since the fighters withdrew from Grozny. Atgiriev does not have anyone either. Yesterday evening people from Vedeno came to see me at home and said: "A detachment of 50 men in our district wants to surrender." I said, "Let them come." Because I know they're not Wahhabites.
Q. They're part of Basayev's brigade?
A. Of course. At the moment many of our fighters are waiting for a guarantee that if they surrender the federal soldiers will not infringe the amnesty.
Q. However, there should be a guarantee on both sides, not just from the federal forces. Can you guarantee that the fighters will not go back to war again?
A. There are no guarantees. Only words. Only trust. We have to trust people.
Q. But no one wants a bullet in the back!
A. What do you suggest, that they should sign something? Even if they gave me such a document it would solve nothing. For instance, I know that Atgiriev very much wants to end this war, he's tired and has been weary for a long time. He did not make any announcements of this kind earlier because then it was Koshman's administration here. Atgiriev and the others will be drawn by the name of Kadyrov.
Q. If you are so sure of yourself then why do you fly home to Tsentoroi every night from Gudermes? Who are you afraid of?
A. No one. It's just that my home's there, and I like it.
Q. Are you hoping for a mass reaction to the amnesty and that many will surrender their arms to you?
A. Yes, many will surrender because of me. But I won't intercede for some with the federal authorities. There are about 20–30 per cent that can only be destroyed. I can name them: the Akhmadovs from Urus-Martan and the Tsagaraevs.
Q. And Maskhadov?
A. Maskhadov is quite a different matter. He is neither a Wahhabite nor a Sufi. He's no one. Maskhadov must officially renounce his post. That's all we ask of him. If only he'd say: "Forgive me, I could not cope" – and then go and live with his son in Malaysia for good.
Q. And they'd let him go?
A. I think so, yes.
Q. But who wouldn't they let go?
A. All those whose names are constantly being mentioned. I don't want to repeat them and give them another free advertisement. They are in the media all the time, as it is. But they're just like the rest of us, they're mortal. They show Khattab with long black locks, armed to the teeth, and apparently invincible, but he fears death as much as any of us. He's not made of iron. Khattab also wants to live and that makes him weak.
Q. What do you think will happen to him in the near future?
A. I think he'll run away.
Q. And Basayev?
A. He'll stay, I think, and fight to the last. If he decides to take up arms again then it will be his last uprising.
GUDERMES
POSTSCRIPT
This interview left a strange feeling. On the one hand, it all made sense: Kadyrov is on the side of the truth and ordinary people. On the other, literally every word was tinged with petty untruths. This is clear to anyone who has spent a couple of days driving round Chechnya as it is today and talking to people. Ask anyone in any part of the country "Who is in charge round here?" and no matter whether you're in Chiri-Yurt, Argun, Shali, Grozny, Oktyabrsk or even Gudermes, the answer is the same: "No one is in charge." "But what about Kadyrov?" "If he were in charge we would at least have seen him."
Having taken Koshman's place in Gudermes, Kadyrov never leaves there. He is afraid to. He does not drive or walk anywhere. It is pointless to ask him anything about the economy. He cannot answer the most elementary question of that kind – for instance, how many enterprises there are in Chechnya and which of them are working today. Kadyrov is wholly engrossed in political feuding, in his hatred for Maskhadov and his urge to show that he has won and can draw the field commanders to his side. And he displays a fatal absence of ideas about how to ensure the most important thing of all, a peaceful existence for his republic.
Once you realise that, you can no longer accept his fine words about the "Chechen nation" and how it "must not be deceived any more".