Chapter 10
Having “the Talk” WITH Young Male Athletes Matters
I coach my son’s AAU team, the Dynamic Disciples. We were coming back from the nationals tournament in Virginia Beach. Driving past the Confederate tributes still on display makes me sick to my stomach. Robert E. Lee Highway, the stretch of Jefferson Davis Highway through Alexandria, the Confederate memorial statue in Old Town. Monument Avenue in Richmond features monuments of five Confederate leaders. Leesburg is named after Robert E. Lee. Gallows Road in Fairfax, Virginia, which runs from Tysons Corner to Annandale, is rumored to be named after the execution device, and who exactly do you think they were executing? Needless to say, I’m not a very big fan of Virginia.
We stopped at a convenience store so the guys could use the restroom and get some snacks. As soon as we walked in, I saw the clerks immediately perk up and they began to watch all of us very closely. I myself went to the restroom, then quickly came out and stood next to the front door facing the store. I said to all of the players, “Stop playing and joking, get what you need and let’s go. Make sure you get a receipt for whatever you purchase.” Their fun and laughing quickly disappeared when they heard my tone change. After they got what they needed, we walked out and saw the father of our center, Big Chris, speaking with a policeman near our van. I heard our team captain Riley literally gasp. I immediately grew concerned. As we approached the van, we saw Chris’s dad telling the policeman that we were an AAU team and that we were coming from nationals, etc.
Once on the bus, Riley sat down next to me and said that he got nervous when he saw the policeman talking to Chris’s dad. I confessed to him that I was nervous too. Some of the other guys heard us and kind of gathered around. I reassured Riley that not all police are bad, and then I asked Darrien, one of our shooting guards, if he understood why I got so serious back in the store. He said, “Not really, I just figured you didn’t want us playing around in the store.” I told him yes, but that wasn’t the main reason. I explained how from the moment we walked into the store, the clerk and the other workers were watching our every move. They weren’t paying any attention to the other customers. Why were they paying so much attention to us? The boys all started shaking their heads and Malcolm said, “Just because we are Black they started watching us? That’s not right. We weren’t doing anything wrong.” I explained to the players that they will come across plenty of unfair situations and that they need to be aware that there are different rules for us sometimes, and that’s just how it is. They are not going to be able to get away with some of the things they may see their white friends getting away with.
I asked them if they watched the 2016 Olympics and if they’d seen the story about the disgraced Olympic swimmer Ryan Lochte. A few guys knew the story and a few didn’t, so I gave them the quick rundown: he was a twelve-time Olympic medalist who lied about being robbed and held at gunpoint with three other swimmers during the Rio Olympics. According to Brazilian authorities, the group tore up a gas station bathroom, urinated in public, threw punches at the security guards. But Ryan Lochte made up this big story about him being robbed at gunpoint and how he had to heroically escape. And do you know what happened to them? The International Olympic Committee (IOC) spokesman Mario Andrada released a statement on the situation that said: “I do not expect any apologies from [Lochte] or other athletes are needed. They were trying to have fun . . . Let’s give these kids a break. They made a mistake. It’s part of life. Life goes on.”
Kids!!!! Ryan Lochte is in his thirties, but they said, “Oh, he’s just a kid.”
Riley shook his head and said, “That’s just not fair. Why are we held to a different standard?” Others joined in shaking their heads.
I said, “I got another example for you: Brock Turner.”
Brock Turner was a Stanford University swimmer who happened to be white. Long story short, he was caught raping a woman behind a dumpster who was passed out, intoxicated. Although he was indicted on five charges—two for rape, two for felony sexual assault, and one for attempted rape—he ended up only actually serving three months. Now, compare that to some of the guys I work with in DC prisons with Free Minds Book Club, a nonprofit group that helps youth offenders. Some of them are locked up for possession of a teaspoon of weed. For being at the wrong place at the wrong time. For getting into a fight.
I told the boys all about Turner and about my own situation with a substitute teacher in my high school Spanish class. I had been sick all day. In the middle of an uncontrollable coughing spell, I asked to go get a drink of water. To my surprise she replied, “No, you can’t, now go sit down and stop disturbing the class.” I asked again and she again she refused my request. Now, what I should have done was collect myself and calmly ask her if I could go to the nurse since I wasn’t feeling well, because she couldn’t legally deny me the right to go to the nurse. But I didn’t do that. I allowed my emotions to take over and I said in an elevated voice, “Look, lady, I don’t know what the devil your problem is, but I need to get a drink of water and I’ma get my drink of water.”
Ms. Kimrey began to put together a report on me, adding every offense she could possibly think of. She said she felt threatened, that I was disruptive and even made an aggressive advance toward her. She used the word “terrified” somewhere in there. As a result, I was suspended for two days.
Was this fair? Of course not. Was it blown way out of proportion? Yes, it definitely was. But did I put myself in a position where they could throw the book at me because of my rash decision-making and failure to control my emotions? Yes, I definitely did. I was focused on winning the battle instead of winning the greater war. Was this the last time I was in a situation where I should focus on the war over the battle? No. I told the players that they have to understand that we simply can’t do what other people do. “If you follow some of your stupid classmates into doing some sort of petty crime, you will go to jail, period,” I told them. “You won’t get a slap on the wrist.” The system is not set up to be fair to us, and the quicker they learned that, the clearer they’d be that we are held to different standards. And again, it’s not how it should be, it’s just the way it is.
We discussed the killing of twelve-year-old Tamir Rice in Cleveland, Ohio, how even though police dispatchers were made aware that the “pistol” the boy was waving was probably fake—which it in fact was—Officer Timothy Loehmann, within moments of arriving on the scene, fired shots at Rice. He didn’t yell at Rice to drop the gun or anything. I kept saying to the boys that it was a TOY GUN. Now look at Dylann Roof, a young white man who murdered nine Black people in a church—but guess what, the police took him alive. Of course this isn’t fair, and yes, there are people like myself who protested vigorously.
Cleveland Browns wide receiver Andrew Hawkins wore a Justice for Tamir Rice shirt on the football field. I told the boys how the Cleveland police got upset at Hawkins because in their eyes, the policemen did nothing wrong. No policemen were charged with any crime for killing Tamir. I explained that the point of me telling them all this is that we can’t do what other people do, and that the first objective is always personal safety. I also wanted to show them how athletes can use their voices to speak out about the injustice that happens.
They all dropped their heads and were soaking in everything I was telling them.
My proud AAU team the Dynamic Disciples after we won a tournament.
Later that summer, I brought the entire team to a panel discussion. They got to hear specific steps they should take when encountering the police. We had Raphael Grant, the deputy chief of police for Prince George’s County there to speak to them. I have been skeptical in the past of having policemen at these panel discussions because, depending on the officer, the entire event can quickly go south. However, Officer Grant was very honest, open, and direct. He said that he would never attempt to justify what another policeman did if he didn’t think that they were in the right. The problem is, you don’t have any control over which policeman you encounter, so you have to always remember that the number-one goal is to get home safely. Unfortunately, even when you do everything right, a situation can still end in tragedy. Like the case of Philando Castile.
Interview with Valerie Castile
(Mother of Philando Castile)
Etan: You are doing a lot more speaking to youth these days. What are some of the messages you are telling them?
Valerie Castile: Well, Governor [Mark] Dayton spoke the truth after my son was killed . . . If my son was white, he wouldn’t have been killed. He talked about the apparent racial bias that exists in the world today. He also said that it was a violation of state law that anyone is treated differently because of their race or the color of their skin. He said it was a violation of what he stood for and said that he would do everything he possibly can to put an end to that, and I appreciate him for saying that because he was absolutely right. My son would still be here if he was white. Same scenario, same situation, same everything . . . It’s always a difference in how the police treat Black people and how they treat white people, and young people have to know that going in so that they are not under some false, fairy-tale assumption that they will be treated the same. They have to do things differently.
Etan: That’s such a difficult pill for so much of mainstream America to swallow because they can’t fathom that there is a difference in how we are treated. They actually think that we are playing by the same rules.
Castile: No, we definitely are not. Let me tell you about my son, Philando, and the type of person he was. What happened to him was so devastating to his friends, my family, me, because of the way that he was. You never, ever would have thought that he would be killed by a person that was supposed to protect and serve our citizens.
Etan: Can you talk a bit more about who he was?
Castile: Philando was such a wonderful human being. And I’m not just saying that because I am his mother, you can ask the people who knew him. I never had to defend his character or defend his behavior. I never had to go to school because of something he did . . . He didn’t bother anyone, he hasn’t so much as had a fight. You barely have heard him raise his voice. He went about things the right way. He wanted to carry a gun, so he purchased it legally . . . He started working when he was thirteen years old when Michael Jordan became popular. He said he wanted a pair of the Jordans and I said, “There is no way on earth I am gonna spend that much money on some shoes,” and he said, “No, I . . . I would work for them.” That’s the kind of person he always was . . .
Right after he graduated, he filled out an application for St. Paul public schools, and they hired him, and he worked as a nutrition aid. And he loved what he was doing. He started doing that at nineteen and kept doing that for the next thirteen years. He became a supervisor and was liked by everyone. My son was the man of the house. We were a single-parent home, and he took on responsibilities that he probably shouldn’t have had to take on at a young age. But he understood the principles and the importance of having the character of being a man, and he took that role very seriously. He understood the importance of your good name, and that’s why he didn’t do things that would ruin his good name or the family’s good name. He was very, very principled . . . He maintained a level of respect from the people around him, even the people who weren’t doing all the rights things. Everybody respected him.
There were a lot of things that I didn’t know about my son. I didn’t know the extent of how great and wonderful he really was. He was always great and wonderful to me, but after he was killed, I found out how much he meant to the community and how much he really did for those kids he worked with. He didn’t brag about all the stuff he did so I didn’t know about it. For instance . . . he had over five hundred different kids that he worked with and he knew each one of their names and their allergies. He knew who couldn’t have milk, who couldn’t eat gluten, who couldn’t have peanuts. Five hundred different kids—he memorized all of their allergies because he cared about them and it was important to him. He wasn’t doing this job just to pick up a check; he cared for these kids. He would wait on the kids who had disabilities and help them off the bus.
Etan: I remember seeing all of the people at the school rallying for him. In the school district’s statement, an unnamed coworker said your son was smart and “overqualified” for his position, yet still took his job seriously. He said, “Kids loved him . . . He was quiet, respectful, and kind. I knew him as warm and funny.” He wore a shirt and tie to his supervisor interview and said his goal was to one day “sit on the other side of this table.”
Castile: Yeah, I saw so many accounts and people speaking that way about my son. It really made me proud as a mother. I always was proud of my son, but it made me even prouder . . . It was like, Look what I raised.
Etan: When you go and speak to young people at different places, what are some of your other messages to them?
Castile: I tell kids that they need to take their education seriously because that’s your ticket out. In whatever you want to do in life, you have to get your education. People will take advantage of people who don’t know. The police will take advantage of people who don’t know their rights. You’re in sports—agents will take advantage of people who don’t know or understand how to read their contracts . . .
That’s why young people have to be careful and be educated and take their education seriously. It’s not cool to not know. Knowing could save your life. You gotta know that this system is set up for you to fail . . . And once you are under that rule of thumb, and in the system, everything just becomes ten times as hard . . . You will be treated differently than white people, and my son is a prime example of that different treatment.
Etan: Do you think we have enough role models out there for young people?
Castile: Of course we have enough, but too many of our young people want to listen to the negativity. There are plenty of positive athletes like yourself doing the right thing, out there doing great things with their foundations and speaking on different things in the media and being a good example for young people to follow, but they wanna pay attention to the foolishness . . . I have always told my kids that the thought is the cause of it all. The things that are planted in your head—if you feed that into your spirit, you will grow up to be just that . . . Look, my son, who was a good person, was killed by a cop and everyone from the governor on down to all the white people from my son’s school are being vocal about how the cop overreacted when my son didn’t do anything wrong . . .
Now, I told you the facts of what happened. The governor agrees it was wrong, congressmen and politicians have all come out publicly and said it was wrong, newspapers and columnists have said it was wrong, public figures like the Minnesota Lynx WNBA players all publicly said it was wrong—all of these people agree that what happened to my son was wrong. But is the cop charged with murder? No, he is charged with second-degree manslaughter. So he may go to jail, he may not. I spoke with the Department of Justice, the BCA, and ABC, I talked to everyone, and they all told me that even though you know it was a murder . . . it’s almost nearly impossible to get a murder conviction for a police officer.
This is not a system for us. And my son didn’t do anything wrong. My son did everything right. He trusted his mother—I told him to tell them people that he had the gun, and that’s exactly what got my son murdered. He didn’t say it in an aggressive manner or making a threat . . . When he got his license, they give you instructions on what to do if you get stopped by the police—to let them know you have a registered weapon. But it didn’t matter . . . My son would never do anything to jeopardize that woman and that baby. He loved them both with all of his heart, they were his everything.
So, you ask me what I tell young people. If they will kill my son and he did nothing wrong, you can’t afford to even try to do anything even remotely wrong and think you are going to get away with your life. Not get away with it, but get away with your life. We have different rules. We can’t do what they do. So keep doing your panels and keep using athletes to try to influence these kids, because they need to be told the truth and be educated on how this system works.
One weekend, we had a team car-wash fund-raiser at an ExxonMobil gas station. It was a great event, especially for some of our new players. I am old school, I don’t believe in giving young people anything. I believe they will appreciate it more when they work for it.
Everything was going well until a man who happened to be white came up to Nichole and said that these kids were not supposed to be there and he was going to call the police. A little while later, the owner of the Exxon called me and told me the guy actually did call the police to report us.
This man saw a bunch of Black kids doing something positive and assumed they were, what, up to no good? Illegally there? Harassing people? It’s sad that an AAU team can’t even do a fund-raising event without being confronted with the harsh reality that they live in a society that will always suspect them of some type of wrongdoing, but it was an important lesson for them about how they will be treated and looked upon for the rest of their lives.
Another lesson for the guys came one day after practice. I was driving Malcolm and his teammate Camar home when we saw flashing lights behind us, followed by a siren. I saw their eyes grow wide with fear and told them to relax, take a deep breath, and sit back.
I pulled over and turned off the music. I put my phone on record and set it in my cup holder facing the window. I took my wallet out of my pocket and put it on the console. I rolled down all the windows and put my hands on the steering wheel. As one policeman walked up to my window, his partner shined his flashlight from the opposite side of the car into Camar’s face and then around the inside of the car. The first police officer said to me, “License and registration.”
I replied in a very clear voice, “My registration is in my glove compartment, is it okay if I get it?”
He said yes and I slowly reached toward my glove compartment as his partner shined his light on my hand the entire time.
I then said, “My license is on my console, is it okay if I reach for it and take it out of my wallet?”
He said yes, and I slowly moved my hands toward the console and retrieved my license.
The officer took the information and went back to his car. I could see so many different emotions in Malcolm’s face. Confusion, fear, concern. I looked back at Camar and saw the same. I asked them if they were all right and they both nodded their heads. I again told them to take a deep breath, to relax, and that everything was going to be okay.
After about ten minutes, the policemen returned. He gave me my license and registration and informed me that I had a taillight that was out and handed me a piece of paper and said I had ten days to get it fixed. Then he said, “Have a good night,” and left.
I immediately recognized that this was a teachable moment. I asked Malcolm and Camar if they noticed everything I did before the policeman approached my window. Malcolm said, “Yes, you turned off the music, rolled down the windows, and put your hands on the steering wheel,” and Camar said, “You took your wallet out before he could ask you.”
I said, “Correct.”
Malcolm said, “I understand why you did all that, but you shouldn’t have to do all that. You didn’t do anything wrong. All that for a broken taillight? Did they even have to pull you over like that and create that intense scene? Couldn’t they have just taken a picture of your license with their special police cameras and mail you a ticket or something?” He was getting himself worked up.
I told him, “Okay, let’s break this whole thing down. One: I turned down my music to avoid an atmosphere of aggression. We were listening to hip-hop, which is something that comes across aggressive to a lot of foreign ears—but it’s just a good idea in general to turn off the music when you are stopped.
“Two: I rolled down all of the windows, even the back windows, because my windows are tinted and I didn’t want the police to have any visibility issues when they approached my car. The first thing they did was shine the light inside. They shined it in Camar’s face in the back, they shined it on the floor, in the third seat, they shined it all over.
“Three: I put both of my hands on the steering wheel so they could see my hands.
“Four: I didn’t make any sudden movements. Even when they told me to get my license and registration. I didn’t just go get it quickly. I asked very loudly and clearly if it was okay for me to go into my glove compartment and get the registration. And I moved slowly. Very slowly. And they still shined their lights on my hands to watch me carefully.”
Malcolm said, “You shouldn’t have to do all that, though. I get it, but we didn’t do anything wrong and he’s treating us like criminals. So, what, we gotta prove to him that we are not criminals? That’s not fair.”
I explained to Malcolm that fair ain’t got nothin’ to do with this. The number one goal is to get home safely, period. But nine times out of ten, they are afraid when they approach a car with Black people in it. That’s just the way it is. Is it the way it should be? No, of course not. But it’s the way it is. They have all the power, all the guns, the authority, but they’re the ones who are scared. And when you know someone is terrified of you and has all the power and is in a position of authority, you have to be wise with your actions. It’s about getting home safely. That’s all that matters. It’s reality and it does nobody any good for any of us to be dead in order to prove the point that this isn’t fair. Because that’s what this is—a matter of life and death. The difference between going home and discussing it like we are doing now, or becoming a hashtag and getting your name on a T-shirt. That’s not what I want. I’m tired of seeing that. We have to understand the difference between winning the battle and winning the war.
Now, I was preparing to win the war. I put my phone in the cup holder, I verbally showed that I was in full compliance. And if anything went wrong, I had the evidence. I could sue them like Thabo Sefolosha and James Blake did. You have to make sure you do everything right in order to build your case.
I wanted to talk to someone who had their own encounter with the police while they were a professional NBA player, so I reached out to five-time NBA all-star, former rookie of the year, Fab Five Michigan legend, and former Washington Wizard—Chris Webber. Over the years, we have developed a mutual respect for each other and I was glad that he opened up to discuss his incident while stressing the importance of making wise choices. If we don’t prepare young athletes to make wise choices, we may very well lose some potential athlete-activists before they ever get a chance to spread their wings.
Etan: I’ve heard you say you were one party away from being dead or in jail. What did you mean by that?
Chris Webber: If you live in certain communities or zip codes . . . you still want to have the same lifestyle as any other kid growing up. So, whether I am in the city or the suburbs or the country, at sixteen I’m going to a bonfire or a club or a party, period. The neighborhood I grew up in unfortunately was a lot more violent than others. Today they talk about Chicago—well, when I was growing up in Detroit, the numbers were far worse than the numbers commonly discussed regarding present-day Chicago. It was a really violent time . . . Some of the neighborhoods were ravaged by drugs and things of that sort and I was just aware of what was going on and the way the community was changing.
For example, I remember a ritual was that you had to have your front lawn cut, and slowly you started to see one lawn not cut, then another, and I remember that decline in the neighborhood . . . I’ve been at parties where people have been shot and where friends have been murdered, and it was just by the grace of God that I wasn’t there at that time . . . So that’s what I mean when I say I was a party away from being dead or in jail.
Let me also add this, because this really bothers me every time I hear it: everyone always redirects the conversation to Black-on-Black crime and police crime. They have nothing to do with each other.
Etan: I agree, but some people always link them together, for whatever reason.
Webber: I want to make sure I make this point and that I preface this first. I believe in helping your community, I believe in helping your brother, I believe in working together, I believe we have a special calling to be able to do that, but I don’t believe that’s anybody’s job, but it’s a policeman’s job specifically to service the community. That’s his job. So when people say, “You talk about police brutality, but you never speak about Black-on-Black crime,” my first question is, “What other citizens are asked to police their own neighborhoods?” And to put that community that has been trivialized, and under a system that helps perpetuate some of the things that happen in the community, it’s almost laughable to put that onus and that responsibility on the community itself . . .
You’re not really looking to fix the problem, just point blame away from yourselves when your system created and is responsible for the problem. I just hate that argument. The same Black people in those neighborhoods who are getting harassed by the police are scared of those individuals who happen to be of the same color who are doing crime in their neighborhood. They make it like, “Hey, that’s your brother doing the crime,” or, “That’s your cousin, why don’t you just tell him to stop?” As if we all know each other and hang out together or something. Everyone is scared of criminals, and to put it on the community as if they should do something about it, that’s not our job, that’s your job. That’s why we pay taxes, that’s why we have policemen.
Etan: That’s a great point.
Webber: One of the worst cases of demonizing the victim to me was Trayvon Martin. That’s why I hope when we have these discussions that the young kids really look into law, which really changes everything. But when you look at Trayvon Martin’s case in particular, he was targeted because of how he looked . . . He was targeted, assaulted, he protected himself, and once he protected himself, someone had the right to kill him. And the demoralizing and demonizing of the victim, we really have to all not fall emotionally for that and stick to what happened and how it happened. Just stick to the relevant facts only. We all have done something in our past somewhere that someone can throw into an argument in order to make the person look like a bad person.
Why do they do that? Because it works. Now . . . when we talk about police brutality, we always recognize the brave job of what they are doing, and I respect that and honor that, but it’s still a service that is their job. Nobody is forcing them to do their job. And anytime you demonize the victim, anytime you demoralize an entire group of people . . . I don’t think you can do as good of a job, and major problems arise . . . I think it’s all based on fear, and that’s why they use the words that they use. That’s why they use the dog whistles that they use.
Etan: I’ve noticed that the media often finds a Black face to echo these sentiments. Does that frustrate you as much as it frustrates me?
Webber: I can’t even tell you how frustrating it is to see that, and it happens so often, and yes, it’s purposely done. They want to only present one side of the argument. And the Black face, as you referred to, knows that, and in order to get the face time, they take that side of the argument. So yes, it infuriates me because I know what they are doing.
Etan: In dealing with young people—and I want to be able to give young people hope in this situation—what would be your advice, not if but when they encounter the police?
Webber: If I was talking with young Black boys, Latino boys, Native American boys specifically, anyone who is not white and couldn’t pass for white, I would tell them first and foremost, “Realize that you are viewed as Black. The world looks at you as Black. Society looks at you as Black. I don’t care if you’re mixed, if you’re Spanish, to them you’re Black. So you have to not only recognize that, but you have to fully understand the history of that, meaning you are going to more likely be treated unfairly by the system, and the system was not made for you to succeed.” I tell my nephews, I tell family members, “Just be aware that you’re Black.”
And that doesn’t mean that you don’t look a man in his eyes. That means that when you are pulled over, you need to show the police officer respect because you are a respectful man anyway, and you deserve respect because they are servicing you . . . So when you assume that and you are respectful, I think it’s easier to detect when something is not right. Then you don’t have to go back and say, “Well, did I have an attitude, was it my fault? Did I exhibit defiance or create an issue?” So one, you should always be respectful. Two, make sure you always have your ID. Three, I think you should always turn your phone on record and sit it on the dashboard . . . Four, and I’ve done this before, I was stopped in DC when I was with the Wizards, this was years before you got there—
Etan: No, I remember.
Webber: Well, I was speeding, and I didn’t have my license. Let me say that first of all, I was wrong on both accounts, but I told him that the car wasn’t stolen and that’s when things went wrong, because I laughed in his face like, “The car was paid for in cash, why are you telling me that the car was stolen?” That’s a lie, just a bold-faced lie. And what I did was I had the old-school Mercedes-Benz that had the phone on the dashboard, so I called my lawyer and told him to tape this conversation. That helped me out tremendously down the road from a legal perspective. When you are aware, you know that the police are going to be believed before you. And so you need to be respectful, have your things in order, and know the law. Specifically in your state, and know your rights . . . So I would say really be aware. You have to be aware that people are dying out here for no reason. For reaching for their license in a glove box after the police told them to give them their license. I am thankful for the job that the good policemen do, but I’m more scared than ever to be a Black man in this country, and that’s after growing up in Detroit, where like I said, the present-day crime rate and murders in Chicago don’t surpass what was going on in Detroit in the eighties.
Etan: I’ve heard you talk about how growing up, your father offered you a lot of advice and gave you “The Talk.”
Webber: I thank him more and more every day now that I’m older, because I don’t know when I finally got it. My father was a disciplinarian. It was his way or the highway . . . I can’t speak for anyone else, but for me, if I did not have my father at home, I don’t know what it would’ve been like . . . I needed that discipline. My father was eleven years old when his mom passed away and he was actually picking cotton on a plantation. A lot of people may hear these stories or read about them, but I grew up having a direct connection to slavery through my father, and he instilled in me hard work, and if you get knocked down or beaten down and you have to cry and you’re hurting, let’s cry and have that release, then get your behind up and get back to work.
So I always wanted to be the man he was, and I always asked myself, Could I have made it through what he was able to make it through? . . . He would take me back in the summers when I was younger and show me . . . why their hands were calloused and bruised, and show me my great-aunt, who was less than a hundred pounds but had to pick a hundred pounds of cotton. So I grew up with an appreciation for what Black people went through, but even more what specifically my father went through. He may not have had the schooling or the education, but he is the wisest man I know. And my mother took a different route through education, so I definitely had a balance of the two, but my father really guided me in a way that was crucial for me . . . His whole thing was, “You gotta be a man,” and he made it fun to be a man and he made it challenging to be a man, and I honestly don’t know where I would be without him.
Interview with Joakim Noah & Derrick Rose
As previously discussed, one of the questions we consistently hear, whether we like it or not, is: What about Black-on-Black crime? I wanted to talk to Joakim Noah and Derrick Rose in particular about this topic. They both have been extremely vocal on different issues in the past. Derrick Rose was the first player to wear the I Can’t Breathe shirt after Eric Garner’s murder. He did it without hesitation and without knowing what the reaction was going to be. Joakim Noah elected to skip a New York Knicks team dinner with a group of army cadets that included a speech from a retired colonel, citing his stance against war and gun violence. Noah also said he felt “uncomfortable” that the Knicks were “conducting training camp for the third straight year at West Point, where the United States Military Academy is based.”
Joakim Noah told the New York Post, “It’s hard for me . . . I have a lot of respect for the kids here fighting—but it’s hard for me to understand why we go to war and why kids have to kill kids all around the world . . . I have mixed feelings about being here. I’m very proud of this country. I love America. I don’t understand kids killing kids around the world.’’
The Post further reported: “Noah said his decision to skip the dinner and speech was not intended as a form of protest. ‘It’s not my way of saying anything—I was not comfortable,’” Joakim explained. “Not surprisingly, the US Military Academy called the move ‘inappropriate.’”
Joakim and Derrick have been involved in a lot of activism, but what I want to focus on here is how they have both been fighting against gun violence. It’s no secret that gun violence and gangbanging in the poor areas of Chicago are out of control. Donald Trump couldn’t stop mentioning this during the presidential debates, saying things such as, “Restore law and order,” when asked how he would improve the relationship between the Black community and the police. Everyone in the country knew exactly what that meant.
As I was interviewing Joakim, I heard the passion in his voice, and how much it genuinely hurt him to see everything that was going on in Chicago. I asked him about Trump’s threat of martial law, and I asked him for his thoughts on what could be done to curtail the violence.
I remember seeing a public service announcement he did in Chicago titled “Stand Up Chicago.’’ In it, Noah, Derrick Rose, and others explain what they stand for—the city, the youth, peace, and reducing violence.
Noah and Derrick have both been committed to addressing the violence that has been afflicting the city of Chicago for far too long. I was glad they agreed to sit down with me and address their willingness to speak out and examine the roots of the violence, the systemic problems that feed into it.
Etan: Derrick, you were one of the first people to wear the I Can’t Breathe shirts—you really started the whole thing. Tell me your reasons for wearing the shirt.
Derrick Rose: At the time, I was really fed up. Being in Chicago and growing up in the neighborhoods I grew up in, and seeing everything that was going on in particular with the police, and the killings, and the violence, I just felt that I needed to say something. I am blessed to have this platform that I have playing in the NBA, and I am able to really get a message out to a lot of people relatively easily, because the media and fans pay attention to every move that we make. When we say something or do something, it gets noticed and people pay attention, and I felt some light needed to be shined on this problem that was going on. And watching Eric Garner’s murder over and over again, seeing the police choke him to death over and over again, and hearing him saying over and over again that he couldn’t breathe, and all of the police standing around watching him be choked to death and nobody had the decency to stop it and say, “That’s enough, he’s down, he’s not resisting, you’re going to kill him,” I just felt something needed to be said about that because that was just not okay and it was not right.
Etan: That was a really strong statement to make, stepping out there by yourself at the time and being the first one. Other players from all around the league joined you after that, but in the beginning, you were alone. Were you at all worried about the backlash that could come with that?
Rose: I really didn’t care about the backlash at all—that was the last thing I was worried about. I called my friend and told him to get the shirt made, and I knew that in the NBA there was probably going to be some type of a fine involved, because usually the first thing they go for is your money, and I knew it was a violation of the pregame team-issued warm-ups with all the NBA logos and everything on it, but I didn’t care. This was bigger than a fine. I felt like I was speaking for millions of people who are suffering and who feel no hope. I mean, how could you feel hope after seeing on tape a crowd of policemen kill this man and choke him to death and nobody even feels any remorse about it? It didn’t even seem like it fazed them. Like he wasn’t even human. They would have had way more of a reaction if they would’ve seen a dog being killed than this human being. So yeah, the last thing I was worried about was a fine or some criticism.
Etan: What was the team’s reaction to you wearing the shirt? Did they reprimand you or tell you to stop?
Rose: No. Honestly, all of it went under the radar. Nobody even questioned me about it in Chicago. Honestly, there was a lot going on there at the time, and I was kind of feuding with the media and they were trying to throw everything against me in Chicago, so I don’t know if that diverted their attention or what, but I get that question all the time: “What did the Bulls say to you?” But honestly, they didn’t say anything at all.
Etan: Joakim, from your perspective, what was the team’s reaction to Derrick wearing the I Can’t Breathe shirt?
Joakim Noah: I was really proud of him. That was really a very strong and powerful and courageous statement. A lot of other players followed in his footsteps, but he was the first one to do it, and that took a lot of courage. It’s not easy to take a stand like that in public, and with all of the scrutiny and the public pressure of playing basketball and staying focused on the game and having to deal with real serious issues on a day-to-day basis.
Etan: Definitely. And what do you think we can do to help this situation, help the community as a whole?
Noah: To me, it’s just investment. There’s gotta be more investment in the community, because society has failed our youth. We need more programs, drug programs, investment in education, I could keep going. And the deeper you get into it and examine the situation and the problem . . . the more unreal it got, because you could see how a lot of these kids are also being used. A lot of people are exploiting them in order to big-up themselves. And that’s really hard to see . . . That hurts because a lot of these kids are hopeless.
Etan: What was your response when you heard Donald Trump threaten that he would send the feds to Chicago?
Noah: I think that before we start talking about sending the feds to Chicago, we need to start talking about these gun laws. We have to really reflect and say, “Are we as a country doing everything we can to stop these kids killing kids?” Because that’s what it is: it’s kids killing kids. Are we putting in the proper investment in trying to stop this before we send in the feds? Because it is, at the end of the day, a war zone.
Etan: Do you think these kids’ lives matter at all to most politicians and decision makers?
Noah: Clearly not. People are making decisions without having any inclination as to what these kids are actually going through. When you talk about ways to stop the violence, it’s not just punishing everyone, or sending in a tank. There are so many other things you can do. Investing in these community centers will help stop the violence. Investing in programs for these kids will stop the violence. Keeping these kids active and keeping them on a positive route and creating jobs so that these kids don’t feel hopeless. Some kids are hooked on drugs and self-medicating themselves to numb the pain of the situation they are in . . . And they know that’s what’s happening. Honestly, the more I started doing with my foundation and with the kids, the more depressing it got. Kids you talk to and work with one day, and the next day they’ve been killed, murdered, sometimes by the police, sometimes by another kid. That’s the madness that’s going on in Chicago and something has got to change.
Rose: They closed like 150 schools, and a lot of schools they are turning into charter schools, and they are combining schools, they are purposely creating a friction in the school by putting rival gangs in the same school together after they decided to close the schools they were going to. There is no other way to describe it but as a setup, because there is no way that they don’t know exactly what they are doing. As far as the martial law that Trump is talking about, there is no way that they should even be thinking about doing that. The people need opportunities to get jobs. They need centers for kids to go to after school.
In Chicago, we don’t have opportunities. Unless you play ball like me or rap, your opportunities are really limited, so if you don’t give someone an opportunity, what do you expect them to do? How are they supposed to eat and feed their children and live and survive? They created the situation that Chicago is in today. They took away opportunities and closed schools and created this environment where people don’t have any hope. What do you think they are going to do if they have no hope? Then, after you created that environment, you wanna talk about sending in the feds to, what, finish the job of the situation you created? You know how they are going to react to that. You know what’s going to happen. They not gonna take that lying down. And of course y’all got bigger guns, they got a lot of guns, it’s literally a war zone, but they don’t have tanks and missiles and drones. I couldn’t imagine what that would look like if they decided to send in the feds—that’s just not the answer to solve this problem you created.
Etan: I definitely agree. Joakim, can you tell me about the work you do with your foundation?
Noah: Noah’s Ark Foundation. Giving kids an outlet—our programs are about expressing yourself through arts and sport. We have basketball tournaments we call the “peace tournaments,” bring kids from different neighborhoods, mix up the teams, have them actually playing on the same team with people who are supposed to be their sworn enemy. Having to pass to them and celebrate a victory with them. We have some of the OGs come and talk to them and spend time with them. It’s not just about the basketball or the tournament, but a way to teach, inspire, and show them the right way. Show them the way that will save their lives, and letting them know how important their lives are.
Etan: Talk about your movement to stop the violence.
Noah: You look at the police brutality—it’s depressing. I feel horrible about it just like anyone who has seen the Eric Garner video should also feel terrible. Nobody should go out like that. Nobody! I think for me, the work can’t stop, the effort can’t stop. Does it seem like we are losing the fight? Yes, it definitely does. But we can’t give up. These are kids, we really have to keep that in mind, and a lot of them are really going through some of the most horrific things imaginable. You talk to some of the kids, and you can see it in their eyes. It’s like they have post-traumatic stress disorder.
Etan: How do you convince those kids that their lives matter?
Noah: My youth coach, Tyrone Green, is the one who changed my life. He wasn’t a celebrity who came there to speak to me. He actually showed me love and showed me that he cared and took the time to guide me and nurture me. Without him, I wouldn’t even be here right now. He was like my other father. He always told me I shouldn’t go back to France or travel in the summer, that I should stay with him in the hood. He molded me . . . and that’s what changed my life. I’m telling you, if it weren’t for him, I don’t know where I would be.
What I realized with a lot of the kids who are going through these issues in the neighborhood—it’s not about a message. These kids get preached on and preached on and preached on. They don’t need anyone telling them they need to do this and they need to do that, and they definitely don’t need any fake people coming to speak to them to make themselves look good . . . They are going to see right through you in a matter of seconds and be able to tell if you’re genuine . . . or just trying to make yourself look good. That’s how they feel loved—not so much by words but by actions, and so that’s what I try to do for them: show them that they are important and that their lives matter. And then I encourage them to look after the younger kids, and to show them that they matter. Again, not just tell them, but to show them that someone cares whether you live or die and is willing to invest time and energy and resources into you, because that’s how important your life is.
What you doin’ with your son’s AAU team, keep doin’ that, man. That stuff makes a difference. Believe me. It really could mean the difference between someone making it in life and someone ending up dead or in jail . . . Keep it all the way real with them. Don’t sugarcoat nothing. So much can be changed when people know that someone cares.