Chapter 11
 Having “the Talk” WITH Young Female Athletes Matters

I have always had a passion for speaking to young men. It started when my mother used to have me speak to the students in her class. I would share my experiences playing ball at Syracuse, and they would listen solely for the reason that I was an athlete at a major university. That was my introduction to the power that athletes have to influence the youth. I continued speaking all through college and during my career in the NBA. I would speak at schools, prisons, community centers, churches. I wrote my book Fatherhood: Rising to the Ultimate Challenge, I was appointed to President Obama’s “Fatherhood and Mentoring Initiative,” I worked with My Brother’s Keeper, and I began appearing on celebrity panels for young men across the country in an effort to inspire, encourage, teach, prepare, and educate. It became something I did nonstop.

But then my daughters Imani and Baby Sierra started getting older and asking questions, just as my son Malcolm did when he was younger. Imani, at nine years old, heard people talking about Sandra Bland and Korryn Gaines at school, and she started to have questions. And just as I had with Malcolm, I now had to have “the talk” with my daughter. I still just wanted them to be playing with their dolls and watching cartoons. In many ways, I naturally felt like I needed to shelter and protect my daughters while I was preparing and teaching my son. That was the absolute wrong approach, and I’m glad my wife kept reminding me of the importance of preparing my daughters the same way I was preparing my son.

I took my daughter to a Black Lives Matter panel discussion, where she heard Swin Cash, Emerald Snipes, and Erica Garner, along with John Starks, Shaun King, Tiny Archibald, and Jerome “JYD” Williams. All of the speakers were fantastic, but it was the female speakers that my daughter connected with most. When Emerald and Erica told their stories of dealing with the death of their father, Imani listened intensely, locked into everything that was going on. I could actually see her being empowered. She listened to Swin talk about Black Lives Matter, and about Philando Castile and Alton Sterling, and then Swin talked about all of the Black women who have lost their lives to the police and may have not gotten the coverage the men have received. She told the audience about Sandra Bland and detailed the story in a way that showed what young Black girls in particular were going to have to deal with growing up, as far as their attitude being a threat. This hit home for so many of the young Black girls there, I am suspecting for the same reason that it hit home for Imani, and that is because she has an attitude. She is quick-witted. Imani is so much like me, sometimes it’s almost scary.

Imani likes to be heard. She likes to be able to get her point across before she is disciplined. And as long as she can say what she needs to get off her chest, she is okay with dealing with whatever punishment comes her way. I am able to reason with Imani and the entire process works for her. The problem is, nobody on earth other than me is going to do that with her. Not her teachers, definitely not her grandmothers on both sides (ha ha), but also not her mother, not her aunts, not her Sunday school teachers at church—nobody. So when she heard the story of Sandra Bland, it resonated with her.

“Young Black girls are being looked at as a threat because of their attitudes. You have to prepare to win the war and not be focused on the immediate battle that you are NOT going to win.” Swin brilliantly let those words hang in the air for a long time. She said we have to think strategically, fully evaluate the situation, and prepare for the bigger war. Now, coming from Swin, these girls heard the message. Coming from a man, it probably would have been offensive. I can say that to young men, but I’m not so sure I can convey that same message to young women. But it’s the same message: they can’t do what they see white women do. I have seen white women cuss the police out, tell them they will have their badge—but we simply cannot do that. The main objective, again, is for them to get home safely.

After that, Swin proceeded to explain what the WNBA does collectively to show their Black Girl Magic. She talked about how they were fed up with the killings by the police and how they wanted to do something about it. She explained how the players looked after each other. How after the WNBA said it was going to fine them for waging their protest, the veterans told the younger players that they would pay their fines and not to worry about the financial part. And every young woman in that audience, my daughter included, was inspired.

A few months later, I took Imani back to Canaan Baptist Church, where I was hosting a panel that included Chamique Holdsclaw, a former WNBA rookie of the year who has played with the Los Angeles Sparks and the Atlanta Dream. My daughter heard Chamique talk about peer pressure and what it means to be self-confident and self-assured no matter what anyone else says about you. Chamique spoke about how proud she was to see the WNBA as a league stand up for Alton Sterling and Philando Castile. Once again, my daughter was completely inspired. As were all of the other young women in the audience, and they were inspired in a way that just wouldn’t have happened if it were a man speaking, no matter who he was. It was amazing to see girls raising their hands during the question-and-answer session, sharing intimate details about struggles they were going through. They talked about being bullied, being picked on, but then Chamique started talking about mental health. She related her own struggles—she told the entire story of everything she had gone through. She discussed her depression, her shame, putting up the facade that she had it all together; she talked about what it was like to see the media turn on you, to go from receiving all of the praise and glory to becoming a villain.

I watched the young women look on in amazement, because of course almost all young girls feel peer pressure. I told the audience that the NBA has finally instituted programs dealing with mental health, and that Chamique wrote a powerful book called Breaking Through: Beating the Odds Shot After Shot. In addition, there is an amazing documentary called Mind/Game: The Unquiet Journey of Chamique Holdsclaw, in which she tells her story to the world, because she knew that there were other people who were dealing with the exact same thing and she didn’t want anyone to feel alone in that. She wanted to use her situation and her experience to inspire, and she has done just that.

I explained how in athletics, including the NBA, there is still a long way to go in the area of mental health. In most sports, it’s thought that you are supposed to be mentally tough. I told them that Chamique had the courage to be able to come forward and be a catalyst for change. Many teams have now created programs that address mental health. I personally met the psychiatrist recently hired by the Oklahoma City Thunder; her sole purpose is to deal with the mental health of the athletes. Various players, including Metta World Peace, Michael Sweetney, Serena Williams, Terry Bradshaw, Jerry West, and Ronda Rousey, are now talking about their depression and their mental health issues—all of this started with Chamique. She has become an activist and advocate for others, highlighting the routine discrimination of people dealing with mental health challenges—the shame, the ridicule, the bullying, the stigma. She has changed the way so many people now look at mental health, and I applaud her for having the courage to do so. 

Chamique Holdsclaw is such an inspiration in so many ways. Her willingness to be an activist for mental health is really courageous.

Interview with Chamique Holdsclaw

 

Etan: What gave you the courage to be able to come forward about your mental health issues and struggles?

 

Chamique Holdsclaw: I thought about the fact that this was something that I really struggled with for a long time. Something that was debilitating. I was faced with a situation where I thought about taking my life and I just felt that it was time to stand up. For so long I worried about what other people thought, and in the sports culture you’re taught to be mentally tough and mentally unbreakable and I didn’t want anyone to think that I was weak. That’s like the ultimate knock on an athlete to say that they are mentally weak. So I hid it. And that just made me sicker and sicker, and of course one thing led to another, but as soon as I opened my mouth, I realized that a lot of other people were dealing with the same thing. I was really proud that I eventually became brave enough to take those steps, because people started sharing their stories with me and in a sense it helped me heal.

 

Etan: My mother used to always tell me that when you overcome something, it’s not for you; it’s for somebody else and it becomes your testimony.

 

Holdsclaw: Definitely, and it’s healing . . . As I have grown into an adult, I see that the greatest gift I have been given is a talent, and that talent has allowed me to get people to pay attention. It’s just a tool, basketball is a tool. And now with the platform . . . what was I going to do with it? I decided to be open and to be honest and to be a positive light on these kids.

 

Etan: You sat on a panel in Harlem with me at Canaan Baptist Church and I saw firsthand the way all of the young ladies in the audience identified with you.

 

Holdsclaw: It makes me feel really good, to be honest, because you see what your purpose is. It’s like I have an out-of-body experience while I am talking to them . . . I’m talking to them physically, but I’m really talking to me, if that makes sense. And I’m telling them the things that I wish somebody would have told me. I know how being a young girl . . . at times we put on this mask and this brave face, but we are very fragile and very sensitive creatures. So I just try to pull back those layers. I know when I was younger, and things weren’t going right, I pretended. I said, “No, I’m okay, I’m good,” and eventually that catches up with you and everything just explodes. So it’s always important to address that and really be honest with young people and give them a safe environment to express how they are feeling.

 

Etan: One of the things I always hear young people saying at these events and panels is that they don’t want to open up about something they are dealing with or struggling with because they are afraid of people teasing them. Talk about how you were able to overcome the haters.

 

Holdsclaw: I remember when I went to live with my grandmother and lived in the projects, but I went to private school. I moved to a new neighborhood and I didn’t go to school with any of the kids in the neighborhood. They would tease me all the time. “Catholic school girl, private school girl, what, you think you better than us? Oh, we’re not worthy of the private school girl who is so high and mighty and better than all us lowly ghetto kids.” I would be like, “I don’t think I’m better than anyone. I have no choice in this. My grandmother is making me go to that school, so you’re gonna make fun of me?” Then, like you said, it was about my feet: “Oh, you got big feet, you got bigger feet than all the boys . . .”

I was having a pretty tough time there for a little while. I remember coming home telling my grandmother they won’t stop teasing me, and she told me, “Don’t worry about them, you just stay focused.” She just poured into me nonstop. And I was really focused as a kid because of her. I remember her telling me that I didn’t have to be a product of my environment and telling me that it’s okay to be different and I didn’t have to be like everybody else . . . And I remember my grandmother telling me that one day the same people who once laughed at me and made fun of me were going to be singing a completely different tune, and her words definitely came true. It was like she could see the future . . . I am so thankful I had my grandmother to guide me through that process.

 

Etan: You were a media darling, you were the female Jordan, and then you saw the media turn on you. Talk about how you were able to use your platform to speak about mental health issues.

 

Holdsclaw: It was really hard because I was always seen in a positive light in the media, then all of a sudden there was story after story and people didn’t know what was going on with me because I didn’t really speak about it. So what I learned during those types of situations was: if you don’t speak about something, people are going to start creating things. And that’s exactly what happened . . . It really started to dig at me until finally I spoke up and explained in detail what really happened, and I saw an immediate shift.

As soon as I started to stand on my own and live in my truth, it was amazing how quickly things changed. I had media people coming up to me apologizing, saying that their moms or wives or husbands have struggled with this also, and they were sorry for how they covered my story and ran with rumors and speculations, and I really saw how the current media culture really works. They build you up, and as soon as something happens, it’s almost like a resentfulness, like, “You let us down.” So I tell young people, especially young athletes, to always remain balanced and know who you are and don’t be afraid ever to speak about your truth . . . Own your own truth and stand up on your own story.

 

Etan: It’s interesting that when athletes speak out about different causes, oftentimes they are standing alone and they don’t necessarily get support from their peers.

 

Holdsclaw: Oh, definitely . . . My expectation was that I was the only athlete dealing with something like this . . . so I started speaking about it and teammates started coming to me in private and thanking me for having the courage to come forward with what I was dealing with, and saying that they themselves have been dealing with the same thing or something similar. And that kept happening. Even today I have athletes from all sports—football, basketball, tennis, soccer—who . . . want to pick my brain about it, because it’s something they personally are dealing with, and we have become our own community, so to speak. We help each other and encourage each other.

 

Etan: I saw you participate in a panel with Metta World Peace, formerly Ron Artest, and he talked about how he was encouraged by you and influenced by you to speak about his own mental health struggles.

 

Holdsclaw: I watched Ron growing up, and I knew him and the things that he struggled with as a kid, but I always knew the core of who he was. And he was always a really good person and a really giving person. And even when he went through this tough time, to see people attack—they just want to attack; they have no idea. And it was tough to see because I feel like I want to protect him, you know? . . . But looking at him grow into the person that he is today, and the work that he’s doing, to advocate for mental health and just being open . . . It’s really courageous once you find that power in your voice and understand the power and influence that you can have.

 

Etan: There is this stigma with male athletes—female athletes as well, but especially male athletes—that if you say anything about mental health, it’s like you become a leper. That’s one of the things you mentioned that has to change.

 

Holdsclaw: The culture has to change. It hurts my heart hearing about all of those stories and hearing how all of these guys were not properly treated and how so many of them ended in tragedy . . . We have to keep putting the message out there and hopefully over time it will change, and we can’t be afraid to stand up to the establishment and the institution. There have been so many situations where I have been on panels with really esteemed people in sports, and I’ll be getting so frustrated because they’re telling me how I should feel and I’m looking at them sideways like, Have you had mental health issues? Have you experienced a manic attack? Have you personally experienced the emotions and feelings of having suicidal thoughts? You’ve studied it and I respect you for studying it because that’s needed, but allow me or the person who has actually gone through this and experienced this to express how we feel . . .

I think that a lot of times people who are professional doctors and educators and PhDs in this field, they just need to listen sometimes. People don’t want to always hear about statistics and things like that, they want to hear about real-life experiences . . . That’s why we like to read autobiographies and see how people overcame and what they had to go through to get where they are. It inspires and empowers us; we just have to allow and encourage people to share more. It’s so important to build a community of support . . . because you really need all the support you can get.

 

Etan: Talk about Mind/Game: The Unquiet Journey of Chamique Holdsclaw and the public’s response to the documentary.

 

Holdsclaw: We are screening the documentary at various colleges and universities, youth programs, to really just allow the public to put a face with mental health . . . It gives people a lot of hope because a lot of people in this country are experiencing some form of mental health issue. People think it’s not that many people, but it really is. I will be at a random place and people will come up to me and say, “Hey, I saw your documentary and was so touched and this is what I was dealing with.” In fact, I was driving from the airport this morning, and the driver asked me what I was here for, and I told him I was speaking at a mental health seminar, and he said, “I thought that was you, Chamique. You have been such an inspiration for me because I am diagnosed bipolar and I didn’t want to tell anyone because of the ridicule and the stigma that comes along with it.” You just never know who you touch, and really, a lot more people are dealing with mental health issues than people think.

 

Interview with Soledad O’Brien

 

Chamique Holdsclaw is shining a spotlight on a topic that many people are simply uncomfortable speaking about. And not just in sports, but all across America. According to statistics, there are almost forty-three million adults under the age of eighteen in the United States who are suffering from some type of mental illness. But there’s still a stigma behind it. So people are forced to keep quiet, living in shame and in silence.

During the question-and-answer session of the Harlem program that Chamique participated in, one of the young women raised her hand and said that anybody who is different at her school is ridiculed, and that she wanted to get all of the girls together and fight against the bullying. Another young lady also shared that she got ridiculed. And one by one, Chamique responded to all of their questions and comments, often with personal anecdotes.

But then another girl raised her hand and asked a question that was really difficult for me as a father to hear. She said that a lot of the boys at her school feel that they can sexually harass females and get away with it. I saw Imani look at me in shock. I saw a teacher’s mouth drop wide open. The girl went on to explain how as a result, a lot of the girls at her school wear baggy clothes and sweatpants. The fact that they felt this was a solution—rather than addressing the boys’ offensive behavior—touched on an issue at the heart of a much bigger problem. I had a very disturbing discussion with CNN host and acclaimed journalist Soledad O’Brien on this topic. It was difficult for me to hear some of the things that Soledad said, but she raised vital issues that I needed to address with my daughters.

 

Etan: What is your primary message to young women in these troubling times?

 

Soledad O’Brien: Remember when you were on a panel at my event at Stony Brook a few years ago, and you told the story about your son and how he was already baffled, at the age of nine, about some of the things that he was seeing and beginning to understand in society? It’s pretty much the same exact way with young women. On one hand, you hate the idea that you get to be the bearer of bad news and you want them to walk through life a little unaware, believing everybody’s good . . . and everyone loves you, and everyone wants to see you succeed. Then all of a sudden something happens, invariably, and you sort of have to have this conversation. Basically, we have to inform young women that a lot of times, life is simply unfair. And some of the stuff that’s unfair is unfair for really, really terrible reasons that connect to our nation’s history; that we are probably never really going to solve . . . You really have to have these conversations with young people early. 

 

Etan: And sometimes you don’t even know where to start.

 

O’Brien: I think, again, that’s just a continuum of the messaging that girls get all the time in their lives, right? Which is, “We don’t want to hear from you. Make sure you’re likable. Don’t have an attitude . . . And make sure that you’re selling what you think is pleasant and likable about yourself, ALL THE TIME.”

I don’t think for any young women watching that terrible Sandra Bland video, that was the first time that they heard the word “mouthy,” and especially not for a Black woman. The message is, “These are the things that make me uncomfortable about you, and if you don’t watch it . . . I’m going to take it out on you; and if you’re a police officer, obviously that means one thing; and if you’re a teacher, that can mean something else; and if you’re a person in the community, that can mean something else.” And I think that message is sent to girls all the time: “This about you makes me uncomfortable.”

I think that a lot of people have a very hard time with young women feeling a little bit powerful, and feeling a little bit strong, and having a voice . . . so they go out of their way and that translates into, “Don’t be mouthy, keep your mouth shut, I don’t want to hear from you, you need to do this.” There’s another subtle part of it that is, “Nobody likes somebody like that. Nobody wants to hear from you.”

When Sheryl Sandberg started with the whole idea of, you know, “Don’t use the word ‘bossy.’” And I’m like, “Well, why not? What’s wrong with being bossy? I’m the boss here. This is my company. I have nine people who work for me. I literally pay nine people, right? I am the boss, so yes, on occasion I am bossy because that is my job.” But, you know, the idea is that nobody likes a little girl who’s bossy. 

 

Etan: Right, that’s true. They don’t say that about young boys. 

 

O’Brien: Never, exactly! . . . So I just think girls get these messages all the time, and then as you get older, it gets translated into your work life. Your interactions with law enforcement officials or just other sort of official people in your life. It never ends, and so I do believe you have to figure out how to have conversations with young women pretty early on about how they have to advocate for themselves. And how they are responsible for their own story and their own versions and kind of fighting back for themselves.

 

Etan: My family was watching the coverage of the presidential election and my nine-year-old daughter heard the vulgar comments Trump made to Billy Bush, and she asked, “Wait, he said he wanted to grab her where? What? What did he say he wanted to do? Why would he say that?” There was so much inappropriate behavior, and you also see what just happened with Bill O’Reilly and his history of sexual harassment, and how it’s been basically tolerated for so long.

When you said that we have to teach girls to stand up for themselves, and yet we see the actions of people in power like Trump and O’Reilly and their patterns of sexual harassment, how do we prepare our girls for what they are about to face?

 

O’Brien: They hear it and I think that no matter who’s president, you have to say, “This is the way you need to think about life and yourself.” Television news was a hotbed of people being groped. I remember thinking, Well, what exactly is considered sexual harassment? Because all of this stuff that’s going on could definitely and should definitely fall into that category. There was a big sexual harassment case, Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas, and I remember everyone talking like this was a big new phenomenon. And I remember thinking, Stuff like this happens all the time. When I first started, the number of female editors who would . . . just talk about how their male colleagues or the anchormen they were working with would stand behind them and rub their shoulders and grope them. I mean, it was crazy!

I was at a journalism dinner and there was a guy there who everybody knew by name. I was wearing a strapless dress . . . and every time he talked to me, and I did not know him well, he would massage my back. He would literally massage my back. And I was mortified. This man could be my grandfather, and what do you do? Do you stand up and freak out? Of course not! You’re at a dinner and it’s an event and it’s a journalism award, so you don’t. And you turn so you can politely and subtly make it so it’s physically difficult for them to grab you . . . and then you dodge and you say, “Oh, I’m going to go get a drink.” And you do what women do, right? You maneuver and you dodge and you duck. And I was a grown person by then, I must’ve been thirty-five years old, maybe older. I had four children by then and I was like, I cannot believe this person is really trying to grope me as if this were okay and a normal thing.

 

Etan: So what’s the solution?

 

O’Brien: Unfortunately, it happens all the time and, again, I think what people who’ve spoken out against it . . . don’t really understand—first of all, I think there is tremendous shame. The first thing you do is start blaming yourself and questioning yourself . . . Was I flirting with them? Was I wearing inappropriate clothing? Did I smile too much at him? Was this my fault?

 

Etan: That’s really messed up. There was one time at my high school with a young girl, and I won’t say her name, but as you were talking I was picturing her and seeing her crying at her locker, and then I was consoling her, and she was saying that something terrible had happened to her but nobody believed her, and I didn’t know how I could help her. I am kicking myself because as an athlete, I could have gotten everybody on the team together and we could have supported this girl. I could have gone to the papers. This was before I really found my voice. I didn’t know how much power I had. I wish I knew then what I know now.

 

O’Brien: Well, hindsight is of course 20/20. And you were what, sixteen, seventeen years old? But from the young girl’s perspective, you think, Well, what I really need to do is just remove myself from this. Then you think, Obviously I’m not going to tell anybody, because it’ll only hurt me.

 

Etan: But then you have a situation like the one with Bill O’Reilly, who’s had a continuous pattern of sexual harassment for many years and . . .

 

O’Brien: Well, because it’s supported, right? I mean, to some degree, you have a culture, right? . . . If you have a culture where everybody’s like wink, wink, you know, no one’s going to go to HR because . . . HR, we all know, is really a way to protect a company. So typically, if you go to HR, it’s probably the first step to you losing your job. For a lot of people, you simply do the math. Is it possible for me to navigate this space where I both keep my job and don’t have to sleep with this guy? . . . That’s the navigation that you do. I do think it’s a really challenging thing. 

 

Etan: So what can we say to young girls about something like this?

 

O’Brien: Well, I think it’s all about finding your voice . . . Start strategically, building your case. Getting witnesses who can, if need be, speak on your behalf and support your claims . . .

You have to tell young women that they need to have a gut. And they need to trust their gut. Because what happens is, we actually make young women squelch that uncomfortable feeling. So you have to be able to say, “You know what? If something feels icky, it probably is. Your gut is probably right. Just like when you walk down a dark alley and you’re like, Eeeewwwww, this does not feel safe, it probably is not. You have to be able to trust that.”

 

Etan: According to the criminal justice statistics, only 344 out of every thousand sexual assaults are reported to the police. That means nearly two out of every three go unreported. According to the National Sexual Violence Resource (NSVRC), one in five women are sexually assaulted on college campuses. More than 90 percent of sexual assault victims on college campuses do not report the assault. Those are alarming statistics.

 

O’Brien: I think people feel like it’s not necessarily clear. So a lot of young women will begin putting themselves on trial, and say things like, “Well, I was drinking.” And they need someone to say to them, “Yeah, you’re right, but still, someone doesn’t get to rape you.” I’ll tell you, I’ve interviewed a ton of young women who were sexually assaulted and raped. And they’ll give you the long list of things that they did that makes them feel like they’re not a good witness or not a good person to bring a complaint . . .

Look at the young woman who accused the Stanford swimmer and look at the headlines in that case, right? “Stanford Swimmer” was how he was referred to. Even when he was convicted. They didn’t say, “Convicted Rapist.” They said, “Stanford Swimmer Ends Up Having to Go to Jail.”

 

Etan: Brock Turner, of course. He actually blamed the entire thing on drinking, his environment, peer pressure, and promiscuity. And he added that he regretted drinking too much and that he made a bad decision. A bad decision? No, you sexually assaulted an unconscious woman.

We really have to tell girls that their lives matter and they matter enough not to accept this as the norm. And we have to tell them to be careful always because there are so many bad people out there. We have to keep giving young girls these messages.

 

O’Brien: Yeah, well, you know, sometimes you do have to just hear it often and hear it a lot. 

 

Interview with Jemele Hill & Michael Smith

 

I have so much admiration for US Olympic gymnasts Dominique Moceanu, Jamie Dantzscher, Jeanette Antolin, and Jessica Howard, for having the courage to speak out about the horrors that they themselves witnessed and experienced. All four athletes bravely spoke out about the rampant sexual abuse in the world of gymnastics, including a culture of ignoring victims and their claims. The courage of these young women is going to help prevent this from happening again; it will put so many people on alert and make them ask their children questions that they wouldn’t have thought to ask. I saw an interview with Dominique Moceanu in which she said that USA Gymnastics president Steve Penny basically dismissed most of what she had come forward about. Moceanu was ostracized by the organization as a whole, though she has decided to continue talking about it because, in her words, “There’s abuse going on in our culture that needs to be addressed, and we could have saved so many more children had we addressed these things more seriously when people spoke up. There were pioneers before me that tried to speak up but I was one of the first to come out in my book and talk seriously about the Károlyis and the mistreatments that occurred.”

Dr. Larry Nassar, former doctor for the USA Gymnastics national team and alleged abuser of multiple gymnasts, is currently in jail after pleading guilty to federal charges of possession of child pornography. He also faces at least thirty-three counts of sexual assault charges in Michigan. If it weren’t for the bravery of these athletes, he may have continued to harm even more young girls. 

I don’t want to teach my daughters that they have to learn how to navigate through a situation where they are being abused; if there is anything they are uncomfortable with, in any situation, no job or team is so important that it’s not worth saying something. Athletes possess the power to bring about justice in a way that more should exercise. I had the power to support the young girl who I mentioned to Soledad who accused a faculty member at our high school of sexually abusing her. I could have used my position, my celebrity, to bring that to light and support her. I stayed quiet, and that is something I have regretted ever since I found out—that she transferred schools, that everybody turned on her, that nobody believed her, and that she was basically forced to recant a statement she had made.

One of the people my daughter Baby Sierra gets a kick out of watching is Jemele Hill. I think it’s Hill’s animation and the way she and Michael Smith go back and forth on different topics on SportsCenter. Baby Sierra says things like, “They’re funny, I like them.” But one segment on His & Hers that caught both of my daughters’ attention wasn’t funny at all. They watched intently as Hill and Smith discussed the body-shaming and slandering that Serena Williams continues to be bombarded with, even though she may be the greatest tennis player of all time. Imani listened to Jemele Hill discuss media reports that addressed Serena’s body image—another tennis player said she was too manly; a coach said he didn’t want his players to look like Serena; someone else said her butt was too big; and yet another said she simply didn’t have the right body type for tennis and therefore technically shouldn’t be winning. Imani had a frown on her face and her eyes grew pensive. She said, “Why do they keep talking about Serena like that? Why are they so worried about her body, and what’s wrong with her body anyway? She’s the one winning and beating everybody, so obviously they should try to have their bodies be like Serena, right? And didn’t Serena beat that Sharapova girl like twenty straight times already, and they still keep talking about her like she’s actually her big rival? If I beat you twenty straight times, you are not on my level. Man, they better leave Serena alone.”

Then Imani heard Hill say that despite the fact that Serena had beaten Maria Sharapova seventeen times in a row, Sharapova had made a lot more money in endorsements than Serena. Imani was irate. She said, “Well, that’s not fair. They’re gonna talk bad about her and pay her less even though she is winning? How is that fair?” Imani was glad to hear Hill using her platform to point out the unfair treatment of Serena.

I wanted to go into a little more depth about this subject with Jemele Hill and Michael Smith, for all the Black girls who hear the criticism of Serena Williams, the body-shaming, the racial prejudice.

 

Etan: You have both used your platforms to speak on behalf of women in many different situations. What is that like for you in this world of sports journalism?

 

Jemele Hill: There are difficult things that you have to deal with. One of course being double standards. There is a different kind of scrutiny of what you say, how you say it, and that’s not just in sports; that’s with women in general. Women are treated differently, especially when you have forceful opinions. You’re made more aware of the way you are coming off to people. You can easily be stereotyped as overly aggressive, especially if you are a woman of color, and even more specifically a Black woman. You’re not allowed to be passionate like men are because you will be considered “irrational”; you will hear criticism of lacking a certain femininity and grace. You are accused of being “angry” or the “angry Black woman.” So you are constantly combating these stereotypes, and despite the advancements and the change that has happened in the industry, women have to constantly prove that we belong in that space.

 

Etan: What’s interesting is seeing that in the coverage of Serena Williams.

 

Michael Smith: Well, first you have the traditional and historic disrespect, devalue, and degradation of the Black woman from a physical standpoint, but when you have a Black woman dominating a sport that is reserved for white women, they are going to find some way to discredit her. It wasn’t enough that there’s these two young Black women in Venus and Serena from Compton, actual sisters who shared a bedroom growing up, defying all odds and becoming the greatest in Serena and one of the top three to five of all time in Venus. I mean, this has to be one of the greatest American sports stories of all time, but instead of embracing the beautiful story, they try to find a way to discredit what they are doing.

 

Hill: There is so much coded language with Serena to unpack . . . But let’s examine a few examples. People go out of their way to overcompliment her power and to do it in a way that purposely tries to deny her a level of delicacy. One of the most difficult stereotypes that Black women face is that we are not considered delicate. Whenever white women are talked about, you hear words like “fragile.” Most of the times when people characterize Black women, it’s as someone who needs to be handled or suppressed or in some cases physically dominated. I think in Serena’s case in particular, because she is such a powerful player, a lot of times they are so overcomplimentary to that power that they are proclaiming that the only reason why she is winning is because she is stronger and bigger than everybody else, when in fact, there is a beauty and grace to her game. But they go out of their way to deny her an even basic femininity and a feminine grace.

So I look at some of the pictures, and we have been guilty of posting this on ESPN.com—there is always a picture of Serena looking angry and powerful and almost predatory, as opposed to pictures of, say, Maria Sharapova or other white female tennis players looking more feminine and more graceful. I know some people may think that I am making too much of it, but people have to understand that much of the way that Serena is shown and discussed is an outright attack on the core of who Black women are.

 

Etan: In the beginning she was criticized for having the wrong body type, and now the criticism has morphed into suggesting she is only winning because she has a certain body type.

 

Smith: She went through so much early, so much criticism, that as she got older it appeared to have made her stronger. So now, when she speaks, she can speak through a place of unfiltered authenticity, because what else can they really say about her? They tried to rob her of her femininity, they tried to rob her of her youth, her innocence at the time, all of the mainstream always had something to say about her. And this was as recently as, what, two years ago? She has been a wonderful activist in her own right. Long before there was a phrase for the culture, that’s what Serena was. She handles her business on and off the court. And she has to deal with the world media—we’re used to the US media, but the world media just has such a different approach. The representation she has to carry, being a Black woman in that sport and being the best in that sport.

 

Etan: I definitely agree, and having two daughters, I see the inspiration as so desperately needed for our young girls.

 

Smith: I have two daughters as well, and Serena is showing Black girls that you have to be confident in yourself because the world is not going to be confident in you or support your Black Girl Magic or your Black beauty, just like they didn’t support Serena’s. In fact, you will have hurdles that you have to overcome, and Serena will be looked at as the activist who defiantly stood up to that criticism and took it head-on. She won Wimbledon and Crip-walked after; she was balancing the plate on her head, the beads, the outfits, all of that was her defiance, saying something like, “I’m not going to conform to who you want me to be, I am going to still speak my mind, be me, call out racism like when I was booed and called racial slurs at the Indian Wells Masters tournament, and dominate a sport you think is reserved only for you.”

And even more than that—the skin, body type—young girls can look at her and see themselves. And what I love most about her is that no matter how much anyone has tried to body-shame her, her confidence never ceased. Her posting pictures in a bathing suit, tight dresses, whatever, that shows off the body that they spend so much time shaming her for—it’s a message to Black girls that you are beautiful just the way you are. So she is an activist for Black beauty, and the fact that this is something that she even needs to be an activist for is tragic in itself. But necessary, especially for young Black girls to see, so they can build up enough self-confidence for the inevitable attacks on their hair, their lips, their noses, their skin tones, their bodies, all of the different things the establishment is going to criticize them for because they are not a skinny white girl with blue eyes, just as they told Serena. And we can show them this Black woman who looks like them, had to withstand this criticism, is proud, beautiful, successful, and the best. She’s as important a person—especially for young Black girls, and grown Black women—as we have.

 

Hill: There is always going to be a certain conversation around her to delegitimize who she is and what she has accomplished. And she realizes that . . . How they have body-shamed Serena has definitely had an impact on how Black women view ourselves . . . There are definitely a lot of positives and a lot of inspiration to be drawn from the success and dominance of Serena and Venus.

But here’s the other side of it—this can also be a roadblock. It almost makes us seem that we are incapable or not allowed to be vulnerable. So while I draw a lot of inspiration from watching and seeing Serena be so unapologetic, there is also a part of me that is saddened by it as well, because Serena has vulnerabilities much like all Black women do. She is complex, she is layered . . . so this idea that Black women are able to weather anything and defeat anything and are the backbone and strength of the community and of our entire race as a whole, and while that may be true throughout history, it also denies us humanity at the same time.

 

Etan: That is a great point. Now, pivoting from Serena and hearing similar criticism come up when Sandra Bland was murdered . . . Explanations were given that she was being too aggressive, too sassy, wasn’t docile enough. This formed a lot of the justification for her murder.

 

Hill: I have this image cemented in my head of the police officer in Texas and . . . there are all of these Black teenagers in bathing suits, and he is seen literally grabbing a girl in a two-piece bathing suit by her hair and throwing her to the ground, waving his gun at the other teenagers that try to come to her assistance. And he sits on her back while she is handcuffed. While she didn’t lose her life, like the other horrendous cases you mentioned, it spoke to the basic lack of humanity, and the vulnerability that we are often denied. And I guess this is why, to some degree, I struggle with the concept of the “strong Black woman,” because it has been used in a way to justify outright assault on our bodies. Even if we are an unarmed teenage girl in a bathing suit at a pool party . . . Black women are a lot of times not seen as women. And if you look at somebody like Serena Williams, that all ties in. Yes, she is strong. Yes, she is powerful. But she is also a woman, and people struggle to combine those three . . . So when you have people who interact with us in everyday life, and we are seen as too aggressive, too sassy, too bold, those can be very dangerous stereotypes.

 

Etan: So what would be your advice to young Black women on how to interact with the police, knowing that that fear is going to be there?

 

Hill: We deserve humanity. It’s not something that we have to earn. It’s not something that we have to apply for. It’s just a basic right. And I think it’s unfortunate, but Black people in general are always told the message that we have to do something in order to gain your respect, as opposed to automatically having it. So you don’t have to earn it, it’s yours, because you are here . . . And whether it be interacting with the police, whether it be at work or at school or in dealing with a boy, you have the deep and abiding sense that you are worth something to yourself and to many others.

 

Interview with Laila Ali & Curtis Conway

 

“Treat other people with respect while accepting nothing less in return.” Those were the words of Laila Ali when I asked her and her husband Curtis Conway how important was it to them to instill in their daughters the importance of standing up for their rights, standing up for themselves, and standing up for what they believe in. Who better to ask about teaching young women self-confidence, self-worth, and self-love than the daughter of Muhammad Ali? A man who was the epitome of the athlete-activist. A man who risked everything for standing up for what he believed and standing firm in the face of adversity and criticism.

Laila Ali is a former boxer who, like her father, was considered “The Greatest.” She retired undefeated, after competing from 1999 to 2007, but not before winning the WBC, WIBA, IWBF, and IBA female super middleweight titles, and the IWBF light heavyweight title. Ali has a passion for inspiring young people through her own experiences, and she is the author of the book Reach! Finding Strength, Spirit, and Personal Power. Curtis Conway is a former wide receiver in the NFL. After being drafted by the Chicago Bears in the first round in 1993, Conway went on to play for the San Diego Chargers, the New York Jets, and the San Francisco 49ers.

“Treat other people with respect while accepting nothing less in return.” I repeated those words to my daughter Imani and asked her what she thought of them. She answered, “That’s a good philosophy to have—whose words were those?” When I told her, she said, “Wow, I would like to know more of what she says. How she raises her kids. How she deals with being Muhammad Ali’s daughter. If she faces any pressure to be ‘The Greatest?’” I showed Imani pictures of Laila Ali and she said she looks a lot like her father and that she wanted to read more about her.

Laila Ali and Curtis Conway are a beautiful couple and a blended family, and neither is afraid nor hesitant to speak their minds and use their platform to help others.

 

Etan: What are some of the main principles you want your daughters to grow up with? 

 

Laila Ali: Children learn by watching the actions of those who raise them, so we must always make sure we are modeling the behavior we intend for them to adopt in their own lives. When it comes to my daughter Sydney, I’m raising her to be confident in herself and her abilities. I want her to believe that she has everything within her that’s needed to achieve anything she puts her mind to. I encourage her to be a leader and not a follower, even when everyone else is going a different direction. At the young age of six, I’m explaining to her that she must have the courage to stand alone when necessary and do what she knows is right. Spirituality plays a big role in my life and I am instilling it in my daughter as well, so that she is in touch with her intuition, has a relationship with God, and knows that we are all connected and a part of something much greater than we can see with our eyes.

If I can instill self-confidence, strong leadership qualities, and spirituality into my daughter, I can rest knowing that she will be able to navigate life successfully. I teach my girls that God created all humans equally. “We are all special in our own way, but not better than the next person.” It is so important that they know this because they will treat others with respect while accepting nothing less than the same treatment in return. 

 

Etan: What is your advice to young women who might be patterning their actions and lives after what they see on TV?

 

Ali: Most of the reality TV shows that are being produced today depict women in a negative way. Sadly, young girls tune in and begin to emulate the women they are watching . . . You must understand that most of what you see on reality TV is not “real.” When it comes to role models, look to women who consistently command respect no matter where they go in the world, such as First Lady Michelle Obama. Aim high!

 

Etan: Curtis, do you think athletes have a responsibility to be a positive light in all of this darkness? Or is it unfair to put that on them?

 

Curtis Conway: I do my best to be a positive example to both adults and kids. With that being said, I don’t think athletes should automatically have the responsibility to be role models to kids, because we all have a right to decide how we want to live our lives and what image we want to portray. Just because you perform your profession in the public eye doesn’t mean you should have to feel pressure to change who you really are to fit the public’s opinion . . . There are a lot of athletes who haven chosen to be responsible with the platform they have, living positive lifestyles, and in some cases giving back to their communities. The media should start giving more coverage to those athletes.

 

Etan: How important is it for girls to stand up for their rights and beliefs?

 

Conway: As a father, I raise my girls to be strong, independent, and to stand for what they believe in. The only time I may not want them to take a stand is when it could physically hurt them. I’m just being real. That’s the father in me, being protective of my girls, because I feel as men, we need to protect our girls and women.