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‘Good morning. If you’ve just joined us, you’re listening to Tough Talk. I’m Hayley Ngata. Today I have a special guest with me here in the studio. Reverend Jonah Vosen probably needs no introduction. He is the founder and director of the Ascension Group, a think tank and advocacy foundation based on Christian values. No stranger to controversy, he is well-known for his biting social commentary. But love him or hate him, you have to agree that he’s always an interesting man to talk to. Reverend, thank you for being here, and welcome to our programme.’
‘Gidday, Hayley. Hello, everyone.’
‘Reverend, as we all know, Abraham Khan and his wife were attacked last night by an armed intruder. The nation is shocked, and it’s put us all on edge. What are your thoughts?’
‘First, let me just say that I’m thankful that Mr and Mrs Khan are safe. I can only imagine how traumatised they must be. What they have gone through is appalling. I am praying that they find strength during this very difficult time.’
‘Even though Mr Khan is a Muslim and his wife is agnostic?’
‘I pray for them anyway. I don’t discriminate.’
‘Good on you, Reverend. Now, regarding the incident itself...’
‘Shocking, yes, but hardly surprising. This has happened because we have allowed undesirable cultures to take root in this country.’
‘You are referring to Mr Khan?’
‘No, Hayley. Goodness, no. I’m talking in general here. For instance, let’s take the radical who tried to murder Mr Khan. His name, I believe, is—’
‘Um, I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to stop you there. My producer’s in my ear, telling me that the suspect has been granted legal name suppression. We can’t allow his name to be broadcast.’
‘My mistake. I apologise. Well, let me put it to you another way. Most immigrants arrive on our shores with a genuine desire to contribute to our beautiful land. To add to our diversity. But it appears that some are failing to assimilate. They are either unwilling or incapable.’
‘Reverend, isn’t that racist?’
‘I beg your pardon?’
‘Well, the prime minister has called you a far-right xenophobe. She’s attacked you as being out of step with modern, multicultural New Zealand. And many Christian and Muslim leaders agree. They accuse you of perpetuating a separatist cult.’
‘Come on, Hayley. That’s a weak argument, and you know it. I have Dutch, Welsh and Maori blood running through my veins. I do understand the value of multiculturalism. In fact, I celebrate it. But at the same time, I’m also a pragmatist. By any chance, have you read Samuel Huntington’s Clash of Civilizations?’
‘No, I can’t say I have. But I do know that it’s been cited a lot since September 11th. Something about cultural fault lines...’
‘That’s right, Hayley. Fault lines. Flashpoints. Mismatched cultures in violent collision. Everything else is just icing on the cake.’
‘Icing on the cake?’
‘Here’s an example. Saudi Arabia is the largest exporter of oil; the United States is the largest importer of oil. And guess what? Fifteen of the nineteen hijackers on 9/11 were Saudis.’
‘Yeah. Okay.’
‘Consider that for a moment. Why would Saudi citizens attack America? Their single biggest customer? Does it make sense? Does it add up?’
‘No, I have to admit it doesn’t.’
‘You see, it’s not a traditional conflict over resource or territory that we are witnessing. It’s really a conflict over hearts and minds. A cultural conflict. A conflict that you and I aren’t even aware of until it creeps up on us and explodes in our faces. That’s what so many fail to understand.’
‘So you’re against... what? Muslim immigrants?’
‘Just those who seek to take us back to the seventh century.’
‘Extremists, then.’
‘Yes, extremists. Radicals. Jihadists.’
‘Reverend, if you don’t mind me saying, you’re pretty radical yourself. Isn’t it hypocritical and unfair to be singling out Muslims and dumping it all on them?’
‘I’m not discriminating against any one religion.’
‘Yet you seem to be drawing a direct link between Muslims and violence.’
‘Will you allow me to put it all into context?’
‘Sure. Go ahead.’
‘Okay. You’re familiar with how critics make fun of my faith and the things I hold absolutely sacred. Does that justify me going out and murdering them? Wrecking violent vengeance upon them? Of course not. Yes, their comments may cause me outrage. But I must still tolerate their right to say what they want to say. It is the rule of law. It is the cornerstone of who we are as a society. So, to be clear, I’m only against those who reject freedom of speech in favour of barbarism.’
‘But shouldn’t free speech have its limits? I mean, insensitive portrayals of Prophet Muhammad have hurt Muslim sensibilities in the past, and we’ve seen the consequences of that overseas. Should we allow free speech to run amok when we know what it will lead to?’
‘Hayley, the freedom that gives naysayers the right to insult God is the same freedom that gives me the right to share my faith. It works both ways. It’s how a mature and dynamic society works. Now, we may not always agree with one another. But we can at least accommodate dissenting opinions. Censorship is not the answer. As a journalist, you would know that.’
‘So you are in favour of Mr Khan pushing ahead with his book tour.’
‘Indeed, I am. Mr Khan is a good Muslim and a good citizen. I have the highest respect for what he’s trying to achieve. He is not intimidated by terrorists, nor should he be. He represents a new breed of Muslim progressives. Someone who uses literature to inspire intellectual advancement instead of blowing himself up to make a point. Now, small as our country may be, it has always stood up for what’s right at critical moments in history. This happens to be one of them. We have an obligation to support and protect Mr Khan as he embarks on his mission.’
‘And you stand by that even if he inspires outbreaks of violence?
‘That’s actually a moot point. We knew the risks when we gave him asylum here. We knew how much those fascists in the Muslim world hated him. But as the old saying goes, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. So we can’t back down. Not now. Not ever.’