Notes of a meeting held at the Berystede Hotel, Ascot, on Wednesday 2 October 1940
Lady Mosley was called and examined by the Advisory Committee. She had appealed three months earlier, in July.
Q You had the particulars which the Secretary of State alleges to be the grounds on which it was necessary to exercise control over you, that you have been active in the furtherance of the objects of the organisation known as the British Union? I just want to ask one or two questions about that. You are, of course, the wife of the Leader of the Party, Sir Oswald Mosley?
D Yes.
Q Is it right that you have been active in the furtherance of the objects of the British Union?
D No it is not. Although of course I am a fascist and a member of the movement, I have never taken any part. I have never spoken, for example or taken any active part at all.
Q But you had sympathy with the movement, naturally?
D Naturally. Yes, of course.
Q Let us take the matters which are alleged. When were you married – I think in 1936?
D In October 1936.
Q Forgive my asking this, in order to get the chronology right. When was your divorce?
D Yes, I divorced my former husband in June 1933 and the divorce was absolute in January 1934.
Q That is six years ago. That is the reason I wanted that date. Between 1933 and 1936, did you know Sir Oswald?
Q Were you a fascist then?
D Yes.
Q Have you always been a fascist?
D Always.
Q How did you come to be a fascist? Who led you to that belief?
D Of course I knew him very well and he told me a great deal about it.
Q Sir Oswald did?
D Yes. I thought, that is the thing for me.
Q Forgive my asking, what age are you now?
D Thirty.
Q In 1933, seven years ago, you would be twenty-three?
D Yes I was twenty-three.
Q Was your first knowledge of Sir Oswald Mosley about that time – in 1933?
D Yes, about then.
Q It was from that date that you really date your fascist beliefs?
D Yes. He used to tell me all about it and so on. We had at that time a National Government and I was always very much against the National Government. I remember the election of 1931 – I think it was the first time I really began to take any interest in politics, except that the father of my first husband was Minister of Agriculture – a Tory. I remember thinking then that if only Lloyd George had had a proper party I might have voted for it, but of course he had no candidate where I lived. I thought if he had had I might have voted. I have never voted.
Q Had you taken any active part in politics before you met Sir Oswald Mosley?
D Only with my father-in-law being Minister of Agriculture, that is all.
Q In the years 1933 and 1934, I think you paid several visits to Rome, did you not?
D Very likely, it is a long time ago. Yes, I used to go and be with Lord Berners in Rome.
Q What was the purpose of your visits to Rome?
D Rome is a beautiful city and I liked to go there. There was no particular purpose.
Q Did you take fencing lessons?
D No.
Q You did not go for the purpose of studying fencing?
D No, I have never done fencing in my life.
Q Did you meet many Italian fascists on those visits?
D No. The only Italian fascists that I have met, I have met more or less in London.
Q Did you ever meet Mussolini?
D Never.
Q I think in August 1934 you flew, did you not, from London to Rome? A Very likely, yes – oh no, I was in the south of France. I may have flown from there. I was not in Rome very much.
Q Where did you stay in Rome on that trip?
D At the Grant Hotel. As a rule I used to stay with Lord Berners, who had a house there but if I went on my own like that, I used to stay at the Grant Hotel.
Q Were those visits to Rome in 1933 and 1934 quite unconnected with Italian fascism or fascism at all?
D Yes.
Q Did you go alone?
D As I told you, both in 1933 and 1934 I went to stay at the house of Lord Berners who is a friend of mine, but in the summer, in August, he was not there. I think I was en route for Rapallo, where I went to stay with some other people.
Q Were they English people you stayed with?
D Yes.
Q We may take it that those visits were just ordinary social visits?
D Yes.
Q Then I come to the next year, 1935. Do you remember a demonstration in Hyde Park on 27 October 1935 under the auspices of the British non-sectarian Anti-Nazi Council, the speakers being Mrs Despard and Mr Attlee? Do you remember that?
D Yes.
Q You were present.
D Yes. I just happened to go.
Q There were various speeches by Mrs Despard and Mr Attlee and, as I understand, a resolution that all business relations with Germany should stop, that there should be a boycott of German goods. Do you remember that resolution being put to the meeting?
D Yes.
Q Were you the only person who voted against it?
D Yes, I believe I was.
Q While they sang the National Anthem at that demonstration, did you give the fascist salute?
D Yes.
Q Would you explain why you did that?
D It was a demonstration against the meeting.
Q Why did you do it?
D I felt very strongly about it; I did not know that there was even going to be such a thing. It was a Sunday, and I happened to be in Hyde Park, and I saw this rabble listening to a lot of speakers.
Q The rabble being the public listening?
D It was the public, but it was a rabble. You would have thought so if you had seen it. They put this vote to boycott German goods, which seemed to me the most ridiculous idea I ever heard of. Then they said ‘Any against?’ and I was on one of those carts or wagons where you stand, and I put my hand up against it. Then, when they sang ‘God Save the King’, I gave the fascist salute.
Q That roused a good deal of feeling, did it not?
D Well, there were many jeers.
Q What were you desirous of demonstrating? Your affection for Germany, was it?
D I thought it ridiculous nonsense to have a boycott of German goods.
Q The meeting itself was expressing the view that it was the only method of bringing Germany to its senses. I am only putting this question to you; I am not stating it was a wise or proper resolution, I am only trying to get the facts. That was the purpose of going there to demonstrate, and that was the only method of bringing this recalcitrant nation to its senses. The meeting was very strongly incensed against Germany, was it not?
D A lot of people had come from the East End and looked very foreign.
Q It really was an anti-fascist meeting?
D Well . . . yes, it was.
Q That was in 1935.In 1936, did you have many contacts with the German Embassy in London?
D Do you mean when Ribbentrop was there?
Q Did you know someone called Fitz Randolph?
D Yes.
Q Who was he?
D I think he was one of the secretaries – I’m not sure.
D No, I do not think I ever did.
Q Did you meet him and have discussions with him?
D I saw him from time to time in other people’s houses. I do not think he ever came to my house.
Q Did you ever discuss with him, at all, political matters with regard to Spain and Russia?
D I may have done so.
Q On 6 October 1936, you were married in Germany?
D Yes.
Q Why were you married in Germany?
D Because we wished to keep the marriage secret.
Q You were married in the house of Frau Goebbels?
D Yes.
Q Was she a friend of yours?
D Yes.
Q How long had you known her?
D A couple of years.
Q Hitler himself was present, was he not?
D Yes.
Q Why?
D Because he is a friend of mine.
Q How long have you known Hitler?
D Since the beginning of 1935.
Q How many times do you think you have seen him between 1935 and 1940?
D I do not know.
Q Is he still a friend of yours?
D I have not seen him for some time.
Q Absence makes the heart grow fonder. Do you still entertain the same feeling for him?
D As regards private and personal friendship, of course I do.
Q The history of Hitler in recent years has not affected your view about that?
D I do not know what his history has been.
Q It is plain for all to see. Did you hear the bombs last night? That is Mr Hitler, as we suggest. Does that kind of thing make any difference to you – the killing of helpless people?
D It is frightful. That is why we have always been for peace.
D But we are doing it too. That is what you have if you have war. That is why we are against war.
Q Does the record of Hitler – we shall have to deal with it in some little detail – affect at all your attitude? [blotted out].
Q Do you still feel the same?
D Of course I do, exactly the same.
Q Supposing he came here – if I might put what I suggest is rather fanciful – would you welcome him?
D No.
Q What would you do?
D Personal friendship, private friendship, has nothing to do with one’s feelings towards one’s country.
Q Supposing a personal friend of yours was the greatest enemy the country has?
D I can never live if England has been conquered.
Q If you had your choice, would you live in England or Germany?
D What do you mean by ‘if you had your choice’?
Q Supposing you had your choice now?
D I should live in England. I have never lived in Germany. I could live in Germany now if it were not for the war.
Q I put the question quite seriously in this way. If you had the choice of the fascist system of government such as exists in Germany, which is at present anathema to most people in this country, would you prefer to live under that regime?
D It has absolutely nothing to do with a system of government. What we prefer is to have the same sort of system of government here, as we think it has done well for that country.
Q That is to say, if you had power, you would displace the present form of government in this country with a fascist regime?
D Yes.
Q The marriage on 6 October 1936 was in Germany because Frau Goebbels and Hitler were friends of yours and it was arranged in that way?
D We wanted this marriage kept a secret. I think this is how it arose. I was in Italy, and I said to someone there at the Embassy, ‘What happens if English people are married in Italy or France?’ The reply was, ‘You would go to the Consul about it and it would have to be posted in the Consulate, and banns, whatever you call it, would be issued for three weeks. So that anybody might quote it in the press, just the same as having it in England.’ Then I discovered that in Germany you can be married in the ordinary way, by registrar, and I thought that would be the best plan. I happened to see Hitler a short time before, and told him that we were interested to be married that way and he said, ‘If you want it to be kept a secret, I would not advise that, because it will be posted up in the registrar’s office’. And he said, ‘Had I not better arrange it?’ And he very kindly did.
Q That was a very great favour?
D I do not think so. It was quite easy to do.
Q He would not do it for most people?
D I think so.
Q Did you tell him why you desired the marriage to be kept a secret?
D I cannot remember – no, I do not think so.
Q What was the ground of keeping the marriage secret?
D My husband thought that it would be better. It was not my idea; it was his idea. He said that in our movement they might be apt to think, as he was just married and so on, that he would not work so hard for them, would not spend so much time and so on, and he thought it might be better if they did not know anything about it.
Q Yes, he made some explanation of that kind to us, of it being out of consideration for the Party and for his position and his work. Did you tell Hitler that was the real reason, doing it out of consideration for his own movement and nothing else?
D No, I think I simply said that we did not wish this to come out yet, and thought of being married abroad and he said, ‘Why not here?’
Q Did you know the other leaders of the Nazi Party?
D Yes.
Q You knew them all?
D Yes.
Q You knew Hess?
D Yes.
Q You knew him very well?
D Not very well. I met him.
Q Himmler?
D Himmler I met once.
Q Goering?
D Yes.
Q The general leaders of the Nazi party – you knew them all?
D Yes.
Q Did you like them?
D Some of them.
Q Did you like Himmler, for example?
D Very much, yes.
Q Have you read at all what it is alleged the Gestapo had done?
D I suppose I had from time to time, read things, yes. But I did not believe them very much.
Q Did you ever speak to Himmler, for example, about the activities alleged against the Gestapo?
D No, I do not think so, not that I can remember. If I saw him, we generally discussed topicalities.
Q In October 1936, the date of your marriage at that particular place, the campaign of the Nazis against the Jews was already in very full flow?
D I think they began at once.
Q Did you ever discuss that at all with the Nazi leaders?
D We mentioned Jews.
Q Do you agree with their policy about Jews?
D Up to a point I do. I am not fond of Jews.
Q Have you read, at all, that it was alleged that very great barbarities and cruelties were inflicted?
D I saw the book called The Brown Book, on Hitler terrorism, but I did not pay much attention to it.
Q You did not take the opportunity of asking, if you could, what the real truth was? Himmler would probably know most about it.
D I remember at the time of the Anschluss, with Austria, asking about Ludwig Rothschild and I remember him saying ‘I cannot think he is any worse than we have got in Britain.’ Except for that one conversation, I cannot remember ever having any conversation about Jews.
Q Between the year 1936 and the outbreak of war in 1939, you did make many visits to Germany?
D Yes.
Q Were they usually by aeroplane?
D Yes.
Q Did you get calls from Germany asking you to go?
D No.
D I am sure I never did.
Q Tell me this – how old is your baby now?
D It was eleven weeks when I was arrested, and I have been in prison Fourteen weeks, so that it is nearly six months old.
Q Shortly before you were expecting the baby, did you actually fly to Germany?
D This baby? No.
Q When was the baby born?
D In April this year.
Q In April 1940. Did you towards the end of 1939, shortly before the Outbreak of war, go to Germany?
D No. The last time I was in Germany was the end of July and beginning of August 1939.
Q There is one particular question we want to ask you about. You remember your husband’s connection with the radio advertising business. He was negotiating with the German Government for a contract or licence?
D Yes.
Q Did you go and see Hitler about that?
D Yes, I did.
Q Did you obtain a concession from Hitler?
D Yes.
Q What did you think was happening? What was the concession you thought you were getting?
D I think you probably know already.
Q Yes I know the history.
D The idea was to get a wavelength in order to advertise English goods. Of course they pay tremendous sums for these things and it was simply a business thing. You had to know people in the Government.
Q It is quite plain, is it not, that it was your friendship with Hitler that obtained that?
D No, I do not think it is quite plain.
Q What part did Hitler play for you?
D It was like this. When they give these concessions in France, to other people, so far as one can make out what happens in France, is that you give a Cabinet Minister a fiver and he would do anything for you. It is not like that in Germany. The Germans had a great number of wavelengths, and I thought they might possibly like to use one of them in this way because they would get foreign exchange. And therefore I went to Goering who had just instituted the four year plan, and suggested it to him. He was very much taken with the idea but when it came down to it, after several weeks of talking to and fro, it was turned down on the ground that the post office would not have it, and that they must have all wavelengths. So I thought that was the end of it. But afterwards I thought, I must have one more go at it. I explained it to Hitler himself and he immediately saw the advantage of it and said yes.
Q Was that in one interview you managed that with Hitler?
D Actually, what happened was that I went straight off to see him and asked him about it.
Q Where did you see him?
D In Berlin. He said, ‘I cannot tell you offhand, but if you like, I will have the thing gone into.’ I said, ‘I think you will . . . that it is a very good idea.’ Then he had it gone into. It took months and months and eventually I was told there were pros and cons and so I thought that was the answer to that. Then I went again to Hitler and said. ‘They tell me this and that. How about it?’ And he let me have it.
Q Did he give instructions to other officials to expedite the matter?
D Well I suppose he did. It was out of his hands then. He does not interest himself much in detail.
Q I quite follow that, but he is all-powerful?
D Yes, if he says they ought to do this or that, they do it.
Q That is what he did?
D Yes.
Q That was a very great favour.
D I do not think so at all. The French have done it because they thought it was business and after all the Germans were incredibly poor as far as foreign exchange is concerned, and there is no doubt that it was a way of attracting foreign exchange.
Q What I meant to ask was, it shows that your standing with him is very high?
D I am a friend of his. I think it shows that he immediately grasped the splendid idea that I put forward to him and understood what a good one it was.
Q Between your husband’s arrest, and your arrest, how long a time elapsed?
D Five weeks.
Q During that time, were you active on behalf of the British Union?
D Only in the sense that the thing was left in the most appalling mess, as you can imagine, as all the chief men had been taken, and I tried to clear it up a bit, as far as salaries and wages were concerned. Actually, it happened that we were just going to move house, because the headquarters’ lease was falling in, and you know what a lot there is to arrange, and there were very few people to do it. I used to come up occasionally but I was really living in the country.
Q Were you then living at Denham?
D Yes.
Q Did you take steps, for example, to see that the newspaper Action continued, and matters of that kind?
D I tried to take steps, but it was utterly impossible because every time anybody started printing it, they went to prison. We were told at that time by Sir John Anderson that people were not put in prison for their opinions and we took his word. But yet every time it was done they went to prison.
Q Were you arrested before the movement was banned?
D No.
Q During that time, before you were detained, you did what you could to see that the movement was carried on?
D I did what I could, naturally. All that I was intending to do was, as I say, to try and clear up the wages side of it, to arrange the move, and possibly to see about Action. So far as I know, we only got two Actions out. I said to my husband, ‘It looks like a passport to prison’, and he agreed we had better give it up.
Q Had you, just before war broke out, the intention of taking your son to see Hitler in Germany?
D Not to see Hitler, but we were going to visit Germany.
Q Just one or two matters about your general outlook. Did you agree with the policy of annexing Austria?
D Well I think I did in this sense, I know the Austrians were longing for it. They always said so.
Q What about Czechoslovakia?
D The Sudetenland was German country and I suppose they felt they must take the rest in order to safeguard their industries.
Q At the time of what they call the Munich crisis, September 1938, did you feel that Germany was justified in claiming the Sudetenland?
D Yes.
Q And you felt in regard to the subsequent annexation of Bohemia and Moravia – that almost followed inevitably?
D I think it was the practical solution there. They asked him to come, as far as I remember.
Q Did you yourself, in conversation about that time, express the view that the Germans were perfectly justified in taking the Sudetenland?
D I think I probably did.
Q With regard to incidents, in September 1939, when war broke out for example, the sinking of the Athenia – what did you think of a thing like that?
D I was at a loss to know what to think. Of course terrible things can happen in war, and it was night, and it would be very hard to see what ship it was. I do not know anything about it. One does not know who did shoot the torpedo, does one? It is a mystery.
Q Take the subsequent events. Take the annexation or over-running of Belgium. What attitude did you take of that?
D I did not take an attitude. I suppose I thought that if you are in a war you have to try and get at your enemies somehow to fight them. You cannot sit endlessly behind fortifications.
Q When the British Army was in that rather dreadful situation, what attitude did you take?
D My husband thought, and it turned out afterwards he was justified in saying, we should not have sent an army on to the continent. He viewed it as the most fearful thing, and a most fearful danger, and it was wonderful when they got away. But they only got away with their bare skins.
Q Did you feel that was rather a matter in which you took some exultation because it rather justified your position?
D No, not in the least.
Q You made no expression of that kind, to anybody?
D Good heavens no.
Q With respect to information in regard to Germany, and the German Air Force, and the German Army, had you any information in your possession? And the Nazi leaders – did you glean any information?
D No, they did not tell me.
Q Take, for example, a thing like the Messerschmidts, which we know about to our cost, did you know anything at all about them?
D No, I did not even know the name until the war came.
Q Did you think England would go to war?
D There were all over London enormous notices saying ‘We have got to be prepared.’ I think it was an extraordinary way of putting it. Then they started by forming the ATS and all the girls joined it, and the men joined up. They were simply dying for a war.
Q Did you really think we would fight?
D I knew we would.
Q It is said that Ribbentrop advised Hitler that we would not.
D What a lie! I can’t imagine he would be so stupid.
Q Did you ever speak to Hitler about it?
D Yes, often.
Q What did you tell him?
D I did not tell him much. He used to tell me. He used to say, ‘I am afraid they are determined.’
Q ‘They’ meaning the government?
D Yes. That Chamberlain was determined.
Q But he said ‘they’? Who was he meaning when he said ‘they’?
D When he said ‘they’ he meant the Government. He did not mean the British people – English people.
Q Did Hitler ever tell you about his own ambitions – what his own policy was?
D Yes.
Q What was his attitude towards this country?
D Very friendly – an attitude of great admiration.
Q Was that a consistent view, held through all the years?
D Yes.
Q Then how do you account for the public utterances of Hitler against this country?
D Since the war began?
Q Yes.
D Once war begins, you cannot go on saying that.
Q Do you think he was sincere in those statements he made to you?
D Yes.
Q You think he was?
D Yes.
Q Did you tell him that Britain would fight?
D I always said that it looked to me like this. After Czechoslovakia my own private opinion was that they sort of hustled Chamberlain in the House, and probably Winston Churchill at the head of them, until the old man could not bear it any longer. He had had enough, and he thought he had been taken in by Hitler over Bohemia and Moravia, and they decided that they must have a war.
Q It would be quite right, would it not, if Chamberlain said he had been taken in, because when he came back in September 1938 he was under the impression that the thing had been settled and that the territorial ambitions of Hitler in Europe were satisfied? He would be quite right, would he not, in saying that he had been taken in?
D No, I do not think he would be right, because I think they asked Hitler to go and clear the thing up and stop a revolution.
Q Tell me this; when was the last occasion on which you saw Hitler?
D At Bayreuth, which ended the first few days of August 1939.
Q Did you not tell him then that there was no doubt that war was coming?
D No, he told me. He said, ‘I am afraid they are determined on it.’ Danzig had to be settled, and he said, ‘I am afraid they are determined on it.’
Q Did you say to Hitler that you thought the Danzig question could be settled by negotiation, as our government had told him?
D He tried that with the Poles. In his view, it could all have been arranged quite peaceably had it not been that just at that time Chamberlain decided to give him this ultimatum.
Q Did you have a good many discussions with Hitler about political matters generally?
D Yes.
Q Did you convey to him the idea that you were rather sympathetic towards his point of view?
D Well, yes, I was.
Q That is quite honest. And therefore you conveyed that idea to him?
D Yes, I suppose so.
Q That was rather siding with him against this country?
D No, of course not.
Q It was rather saying ‘My country is in the wrong’?
D Not my country. I absolutely differentiate between my Government and my country.
Q Well, the Government of my country?
D Not even that. I think it was just a few of them.
Q Supposing you had been dictator in this country in the year 1939, in the month of August, what would you have said to Hitler?
D If I had considered it was my business at all . . .
W Assume it was your business. Assume you are dictator.
D Even as dictator, I do not think Danzig would have been my business. It would be Hitler’s business.
Q You would have had to take an attitude.
D If I took an attitude, I should say: ‘Go ahead.’
Q Would you say: ‘This is your business, not mine. I shall not interfere at all.’? Supposing you were absolute dictator and he said ‘I am now going to take Denmark and Norway.’ What would you say then? Would you say: ‘Go ahead.’?
D Yes. It is not our business.
Q Supposing he said: ‘I will now take Belgium and Holland.’?
D I think that question is unfair, because he did not want to do that.
Q I would not put an unfair question.
D You may not think it is unfair.
Q None of these questions is designed to put you into difficulty.
D I quite appreciate that, but I still think that it is an unfair question because it could not have happened.
Q Unless war had come, you mean?
D Hitler does not want Belgium. If you have ever been to Belgium, you will know it is a horrible place. It is just because they have to have the ports to fight us. They would soon go out again when the war is over.
Q Let me put this question. Do you think Hitler can be trusted?
D We always say, ‘It is not a question of whether he could be trusted’. If you ask me personally whether as a man I trust him, of course I do. But we should not put ourselves in a position where we should have to trust. If I were dictator of this country, there would be no question of trusting anybody.
Q Would you agree, for example, that it would be simple to demonstrate that Hitler has broken his word?
D No, I would not agree.
Q ‘With regard to my territorial claims in Europe,’ he said, ‘this is the last claim I have to make.’
D Perhaps it was, when he made it.
Q His pact with Poland, which was a ten-year pact of non-aggression, was rudely broken. How would you regard that?
D I think he was able to fix that with Poland. He said himself they would certainly agree to the motor road and a railway through East Prussia. He went so far as to say to me once in private conversation, and I believe also in a speech, ‘No other German could have made a suggestion like this to the German people.’
Q He said this in a public speech.
D Yes, I believe he did. He was so extremely generous to Poland.
Q What you are really saying is this: expediency has governed the actions of Hitler, and therefore, if it is a matter of truth or breaking of pledges, when he says ‘this is my last claim in Europe’, it was at the time.
D People always talk about the ‘last’ claim. Nobody could imagine that Danzig was going to go on being ruled by the League of Nations for ever. It is almost too unreal.
Q It has gone on for a very long time.
D Yes it has – but what an extraordinary position.
Q It went on until Hitler was in such a powerful position by force of arms that he could say ‘We are going to take it.’
D No, I do not think so. Danzig wanted to go back, did it not?
Q The situation really was this, was it not? Taking it quite broadly, as Hitler grew to power, and his movement became greater, so his policy adapted itself. There was the Rhineland, Austria, Czechoslovakia.
D You do not make any move, if you are a wise statesman, unless your country is strong.
Q In a word, you are a very great admirer of Hitler and his policy?
D I think he has done well for Germany. When it comes to England or the Empire, that is our affair.
Q Have you at any time, either in private conversation or in public, ever condemned anything that Hitler has done?
D I cannot remember anything.
Q With regard to the universal hate which is to be found among the people of this country for Hitler, and all his methods, do you find that difficult to understand?
D Not in the least, because I do not think they know any better. I dare say they have read nothing but the quotes of the Daily Express or the Daily Herald. If that had been my daily bread for ten years, I should feel the same.
Q You will forgive me putting it like this. You are exceedingly intelligent on these matters.
D You are being sarcastic.
Q I am not sarcastic. I am quite sincere. I put it this way because you do betray, in the real sense of the word, an intelligent view about these things. When you say ‘they know no better’, would you not agree that up to 1938, the policy of this country had been ‘Let us avoid war at all costs.’?
D Of course I would not agree. That was not the policy.
Q The Government, headed by Mr Chamberlain, said, ‘Let us avoid war at all costs.’
D But there was always in the background the Duff Coopers and the Winstons.
Q You mean Mr Winston Churchill? He was saying ‘Let us be prepared at any rate.’
D I have known Winston Churchill since I was a small child. He is more interested in war than anything else in the world.
Q You have read a good many of his speeches, I suppose? Have you read any of his books? Have you read Step by Step?
D I have not read Step by Step.
Q You have probably read his speeches in The Times. Does not Mr Churchill, in all those speeches, say ‘War is a most terrible calamity’.
D He would do. But I do not think he really feels that.
Q It is very difficult to believe that any man would really desire a cataclysm.
D I am sure he does not either. But I think he is this sort of person. He actually said to my husband once and in my presence too, ‘When the country is absolutely calm, and things are going on peaceably, people like Baldwin can govern it. But when it gets to times of stress, then they want a man like me.’ He feels that. There is something in it. He has a very great personality. There is no question of it. In a way, he welcomes times of stress.
Q That is your view about the matter. Supposing the Home Secretary were to release you and say ‘You may go free’, your views would remain unaltered? You would not be anxious for this country to win the war?
D I would be very anxious.
Q And Hitler defeated?
D They obviously could not do that.
Q They are going to do so.
D I could not actually ask to do anything, because our movement has been banned and there is nothing I can do. But my wish and hope would be perhaps we might negotiate a peace.
Q Would you like to see Hitler defeated?
D It is not a question of liking.
Q Let me put it in this way. Suppose it were possible for the might of this country, plus probably the might of America, to defeat Hitler and all his schemes, would you rejoice, or would you be disappointed?
D I think I should prefer not to answer that. It is not a question of rejoicing. I should be very glad to see it end, however it might end. Certainly it would be far better from the point of view of the world that we did not have another Versailles, if we could arrange it.
Q You say ‘however it might end’. Most people want war to end very quickly and very badly. Supposing the war ended with Hitler being able to dictate the policy of this country, as he dictates the policy of France now, surely that would be a tragedy?
D Yes, that is the whole reason why.
Q The thing cannot be dealt with without the defeat of Hitler, can it?
D Well, in my opinion it could. I think we could stop now and not lose the Empire, although every week the war goes on deepens the tragedy, because already, I suppose, we shall have lost Gibraltar and the Mediterranean.
Q I just want to ask you one word about your attitude to the Italian war and Mussolini. Do you agree with the intervention of Italy in the war?
D I do not agree with it, but I quite expected it.
Q What possible kind of provocation has Italy had?
D The allies of a country naturally go in with that country. We had France and Hitler had Italy.
Q Why did not Mussolini come in at the beginning of the war? Why did he wait until France was on the verge of collapse?
D I do not know. I assume it was due to the blockade.
Q But the blockade had been going on all those months before Italy came into the war?
D There was no war, practically, going on before April. There was just a small bit here and there. There were just a few bombings.
Q Do you not feel a strong sense of indignation that Mussolini should intervene and declare himself an enemy of this country?
D He has always declared himself that, ever since sanctions.
Q On the contrary. What do you suppose Lord Halifax and Mr Chamberlain went to Rome for?
D Heaven knows. I do not.
Q Do you really think that the Italian people, for example, had any real quarrel with the people of this country?
D There is no question of a quarrel between the peoples. Our people had no quarrel with the Germans, or the Germans with us, or the Italians with us. It is always the Government. Ever since sanctions, I think the Italians have felt rather bitter.
Q Would you like to see Mussolini defeated?
D Yes.
Q By conquest?
D Yes. But I think it is a fearful thing. That is the whole reason why we are so against having a war.
Q Have you ever reflected, during your detention, why you have been detained?
D Yes, often.
Q What conclusion did you come to?
D It was because I had married Sir Oswald Mosley.
Q You are probably right. There is something in that. There are very few people in the country holding the views you hold.
D I think there are a huge number, but they are afraid to speak. We do not mind, but others do.
Q You are in a very exceptional position as being a close friend of Hitler.
D Yes, I suppose so.
Q That is the distinction. You are a close friend of Hitler.
D Yes, I suppose so.
Q He had discussed with you the most important aspects of foreign policy.
D Yes, he always did. Because, as I say, he is an authoritarian, and that is what interested me.
Q And you conveyed to him what you thought the real situation here was?
D Always. I never tried to hide that from him, in the least, as far as I knew it. I only knew it from the papers, because I had completely lost touch with anybody.
Q As to the kind of thing you would say to him, you would speak in strong terms of condemnation of Churchill and Duff Cooper?
D Yes. Strong condemnation of Duff Cooper and in [? defence] of Churchill. I remember him asking me about Winston, and I told him what I believed to be the truth.
Q Pretty well what you have told us today?
D I always said he was an extremely clever man and a great patriot according to his own lights, and I always said he was in quite a different category from Duff Cooper or Eden.
Q And I suppose you discussed all the leading personalities like Mr Chamberlain?
D I never knew Mr Chamberlain.
Q You probably gave your view of him?
D No, I did not. I asked him his opinion of him. He had seen him and I had not.
Q Did he tell you all about the meetings?
D Yes.
Q What attitude did he take – that he liked Mr Chamberlain?
D I think he thought he was all right – a typical democrat.
Q Did he think he had got the better of Chamberlain?
D No, I do not think so; I do not think that he wanted to get the better of him. I do not think he was at all pleased. It never struck me that he was pleased. I do not think he saw it as a great victory at all, in the way it was portrayed here.
Q You have never been a member of the British Union, have you?
D Always.
Q You have, of course, told us about your activities in connection with it. Really, it comes to this, does it not? Your views are utterly unchanged about anything.
D Why should they change? They are confirmed, really, by everything that has happened. I am, as I tell you, a friend of Hitler, but quite apart from that, it is not a question of how he governs his country. We felt it would be a great tragedy for England to declare war about such a thing as Danzig. If we were attacked, then it would be time enough to declare war. If only they had done what my husband said! People used to say, ‘If you do that, he will come and take England.’ But we always thought that was absolute nonsense. Even supposing it true, we should not have lost 35,000 men in France and spent millions of pounds on guns which we had to leave behind. We should have those to defend us, supposing he had attacked us. And with all those supplies, we could deal with Mussolini. Everything my husband said came true.
Q Are you able to communicate with your husband now?
D Yes, I write to him. But I have sent in a petition to be allowed to see him. It is more than three months since I did. My lawyer went to see Mr Peck at the Home Office, and Mr Peck saw no reason why I should not.
D Brixton. I wonder whether it would be possible.
Q I will deal with any matter of that kind at the end of this morning. For the moment, those are the questions I want to ask you. My colleagues may desire to ask you some questions.
SIR GEORGE CLERK You knew all the Nazi leaders, you say. Did you by any chance know Streicher?
D Yes.
Q Did you agree with his views?
D I do not know how far all those stories about him are true. I do not know if you have ever seen him yourself?
Q No.
D He is a very simple little fellow. Quite uneducated. He was a schoolmaster and speaks what you would call quite uneducated German. He used to amuse me with his talk and so on. I do not know that he is as bad as he is made out to be.
Q Did the Sturmer amuse you?
D Very much, but only from the pornographic point of view. The Sturmer is nonsense from beginning to end.
Q I suppose he had a certain amount of influence?
D Very little.
Q Did you know Henlein?
D No.
Q Or Frank?
D Frank I think I have met once, but I do not know him.
Q What impression did he make on you?
D I have often heard him speak. I think I have once had lunch with him. I cannot remember really.
Q I am asking you these questions because I gather from what you told the Chairman that you thought, having taken the Sudetenland, Hitler had in a sense no option but to go on and absorb Bohemia and Moravia?
D I believe this was inevitable.
Q I was only trying to get at your point of view. I was interested to know if you had had any close contact with the Franks and Henleins and certain elements of that sort who were involved in it.
D No I have not.
Q There is one small point going right the way back to the famous meeting in Hyde Park. You called it a rabble but I think it was mostly an ordinary sort of crowd, wasn’t it?
D No, they had come up from the East End for it. It was mostly Jews.
Q When you gave your fascist salute, I do not quite understand why you did it? Was it a way of saluting our National Anthem or was it a protest?
D If they play it right through from beginning to end, that is how we salute on an informal sort of occasion.
Q At a British Union meeting, for instance, supposing the National Anthem was played, you would all stand and give the fascist salute?
D Not at the beginning, only in the last few lines. Not perhaps in a theatre or anything of that kind, but anywhere out of doors.
SIR ARTHUR HAZLERIGG At the end of one of your big meetings perhaps?
D Yes, at the end of one of our big meetings.
SIR GEORGE CLERK Your fascist salute on this occasion was made a good deal of in the press. You did not mean it as a protest? You made it as a good fascist?
D No. There was a little more to it than that. After I voted against the boycott they started growling, and making most sinister sounds.
Q Had you got the badge on you?
D No. I had quite a new coat on. I gave the salute in order more or less to underline the fact that I had voted against the resolution, and then they started running after me. It was terrifying.
Q They did not get you?
D No, they did not get me.
Q Did you run faster?
D Two young men appeared as if from nowhere and took my arms. They whispered to me that they were members of the movement. It was fortunate for me, as I was entirely alone.
Q One last point. On the whole, you have seen a great deal of it, and you approve of the Nazi regime?
D Yes, I suppose so. I think it has done very well.
Q Supposing the British Union and your husband were in power here, you would consider that a really good way to run the country?
D Oh yes, an excellent way.
Q With a Gestapo, and all the rest of it?
D I do not bother about the Gestapo. I do not know anything about that.
Q But you cannot run the Nazi regime, or the Bolshevist regime, or the Italian fascist regime, without something of that sort.
D You would have to have police, as we do, as far as that goes. I do not know anything about concentration camps, I have never been to one and I only know what people have told me.
Q It is rather more than concentration camps. No expression of opinion is safe.
D It is no worse than in England. It seems to me very similar. As a matter of fact, supposing somebody had come to the equivalent of what I have done in Germany, I do not think they would be in prison. I am sure they would never take a woman from a tiny baby. I absolutely know it. They have a respect for motherhood. It is terrible in our prison. The child was not actually taken away from me – I was sure London would be bombed. It was shortly after France gave in and I did not want him in London.
Q You do not think that if you talked about Duff Cooper, assuming he was a member of the Government, in the same way as you still talk of Hitler here, that that would be subversive in a fascist regime?
D Oh no, that’s not so. Privately, you mean?
Q Yes.
D Oh no, they can talk privately. They would not talk in a disrespectful way any more than it would occur to anyone in England to talk about the King in a disrespectful way.
Q To talk about Himmler would be very dangerous in Germany.
D It might be, but I suppose people do it. In fact, I have heard all kinds of expressions passed in trains and so on. Every kind of thing I have had said to me. As to Streicher, practically all the leaders are down on him, always taking every opportunity of putting him down. I think it is a great shame.
Q You think it is a great shame, to put him in jail?
D I should think so. They do not all absolutely agree, you know, any more than we do.
Q But your general feeling, taking it all round, is that the Nazi regime is a good one?
D I think it is a marvellous thing for the Germans.
Q Do you think that the Czechs, Poles, Slovaks, Danes and Norwegians, French and Rumanians are going to find it a marvellous regime?
D I cannot answer that in just one word. But obviously, when the war is over, there will be no more question of the occupation of France or Belgium, and I think not even of Holland.
Q Or Rumania?
D Rumania is not in occupation now.
Q Not yet, but it looks very like it. You think all those acts are the inevitable consequences of our folly in embarking on this war?
D Yes, I do, because I do not think those particular things would ever have occurred. We must never let one power have all the Channel ports. I do not think that should ever have happened.
SIR ARTHUR HAZLERIGG I do not know if you think this is an unfair question. Whose fault do you think the war was?
D I think it was the fault of the people now in power in England.
Q I see.
D I know it was.
Q We will leave it at that. You say you know it was. Your husband’s policy was always to prepare against any form of attack and to make the country great and safe?
D Yes.
Q You would not have called him a warmonger?
D No.
Q Winston Churchill’s whole attitude during the last two or three years has been exactly the same idea of making the country safe and preparing armaments, and I gather from what you said to the Chairman that because he had done that he ought to be called ‘warmonger’.
D I was very much against the weakness of total disarmament that we practically found ourselves in. I remember once talking to Hitler about it and something about Winston Churchill. I said, ‘He is a patriot and cannot bear to see England weak. And he is hurrying on our armaments as much as he can.’ I remember him saying ‘I am the German Churchill’. I admired Winston for that tremendously; I thought it was splendid. But I think in his own character he is a person who enjoys war, and always saw himself as a great leader.
Q If you were a friend of his, you might say his best qualities would be brought out in a time of crisis.
D I think he is always looking back to Marlborough and I think it would be his dearest wish to lead an army in the field. But of course he has not been able to do that.
SIR GEORGE CLERK There is a point that occurred to me when you were talking about Winston Churchill earlier on. I think what you really mean may be put in this way: he regards as the highest form of human activity the command of a great army in the field – let us say the career of Alexander the Great. He is almost obsessed by the career of Marlborough but for all that he would not deliberately work for his country to go to war in order to have that position, whether as Prime Minister or leader of the people.
D Even I would not suggest that. I do feel that he was frightfully jealous of Hitler. The last time I saw him, he wanted to hear about him. I think he felt himself ‘If only I had a chance like that.’ Of course he knew he never could. It was too late to change. I think he thought ‘How maddening – I’ve missed it again.’ He was always thinking of Caesar and Alexander.
Q You do not think he, as it were, seized this crisis?
D No of course not. I do not think he is wicked at all in that sense. I think he is a patriot. In a way I think he longed for war but he did not want to bring it about.
SIR ARTHUR HAZLERIGG You have a great contempt for democracy?
D Yes.
Q And so has Hitler?
D Yes.
Q How can you say then that he admires this country, which is a democratic country?
D Because he admires England tremendously for its general characteristics.
Q But I should have thought the characteristics of this country for years were democratic?
D I do not think it was democratic when we got the Empire and so on. We did not go to the negroes and say ‘Look here, you vote to have your rulers.’ We went and took bits of the world.
Q I see what you mean. But that was the Government of this country. The country may have been democratic, even when they did some undemocratic things.
CHAIRMAN That is a quality that Hitler admires – that goes and gets something when he wants it?
D He admires a country when it is growing and expanding.
SIR ARTHUR HAZLERIGG I suppose he thinks we ought always to go on growing and expanding?
D He thinks all the Europeans should have their own ‘living space’ which they should be allowed to develop.
Q Supposing he had most of it?
D No. He wanted Europe, and we could have the world, as far as we want. I do not think he wanted more, except the colonies back.
Q And all Europe?
D I think all Europe east of the Rhine. Not to occupy physically, but simply as an economic unit.
Q It is very much the same thing, is it not, in Hitler’s idea?
D Sir George Clark knows more about this than I do, obviously. But I believe those countries are very backward, and in a sense they have to be developed by the Germans or the French. Even Czechoslovakia had to have the French to organise their army, the same as the Germans organised the Russian army. You cannot quite call them advanced peoples, can you?
SIR GEORGE CLERK The Czechs, very far from being a backward people, are an advanced people. The organisation of the army was due to the fact that they never had one. They had always been part of the Austrian army or the Russian army.
D Take for instance Rumania. Everybody who has ever been there, and who knows it well, always tells you they practically do not know who governs them.
THE CHAIRMAN The other point I intended to ask you is this: How many sisters have you?
D Five.
Q There is Miss Unity Mitford?
D Yes. They are all shades. I have a social democrat sister, and a communist sister.
Q What is the name of the communist sister?
D Mrs Romilly.
Q You said you knew that London would be bombed so took your child away. Did Hitler ever speak about the bombing of London?
D No.
Q Did you by any chance know Joyce – Lord Haw-Haw?
D I have seen him but I do not know him.
Q You were not attached to the movement when he was a member?
D Yes, I once heard him speak. That is how I saw him.
Q Some of the questions we have been asking, which have ranged over a very wide field are, I think, from many points of view very difficult questions to put to anybody. But those are really the questions we wanted to ask you. I would, however, like you to feel that if you would like to make any observations about anything we have raised, or anything we have not raised, dealing with the general position, to why you should not be detained, we should be very glad to hear you.
D The reason why I think I should not be detained any longer, or indeed at all, is that they have banned the movement, and my husband has said that it is not to carry on any activity until the war is over; I cannot see any reason for keeping us any longer in prison.
Q Do you think there is any probability that people will disregard the order of the Home Secretary and carry on the movement in an underground fashion?
D They would never do what they were told not to do by him.
Q I have never really quite understood why your husband did not issue a manifesto to his people after the Low Countries were invaded and say, ‘The whole policy of the Union must be reversed’?
D He did in a sense, in a statement he made at the beginning of the week he told them to obey the law and fight for our country.
Q But when the Low Countries were invaded he did not say to his people ‘The moment I told you about, when we should stand in defence of the country, has arrived.’ That would have been the finest thing for him to prove his sincerity that I can imagine. I could never imagine why he did not do that.
D I think he was always expecting – I am certain that I did – that France would give in, because France was so riddled with communism and never had her heart in the war. I think that is what he more or less expected.
Q What he did was take steps to see that the organisation was carried on after he was interned. We have the evidence. He told us quite plainly that certain . . . were given a note to say ‘This gentleman has the confidence of the Leader’ and they were to carry on the organisation if the Leader was interned. That was always the intention. Lots of humbler folk from the British Union – the rank and file, shopkeepers and all sorts of humble folk who come here – say ‘We joined the movement because it was a patriotic movement. Britain for the British and if this country were attacked we should defend it to the last.’ That being so, I could never understand, as I say, when the Low Countries were invaded and the German forces were coming to the coast, why Sir Oswald did not say: ‘That moment has now come.’
D I think he still thought that we could have a very fair peace.
Q But you see, it would have meant he was saying ‘The moment has now come when we should defend this country and defeat Hitler’.
D That was not why he did not say it, of course.
Q I am suggesting that to have made such a statement would have involved saying that and therefore he shrank from saying it.
D I do not think so in the least. I was with him at the time and I remember him taking a great interest in the war, as anyone does. He had always recognised that as a possibility. I think probably the Germans themselves were surprised how quickly they had won.
Q Was there anything further, Lady Mosley?
D There is the question about a visit to him.
Q Is there anything further you wish to say on whether you should be released or that you be detained?
D No, absolutely nothing. It does seem to me, however much you recommend it, I shall never be released until you have got rid of Sir John Anderson. It seems to me that he is our enemy in the matter.
Q You quite appreciate we are only an advisory committee?
D I cannot think anyone would want to detain one in prison. It seems almost too mad and crazy. Above all, my husband is the most tremendous patriot and adores his country. I feel it very strongly. Of course I am very bitter about it. At the same time, there you are.
The witness withdrew.
The Committee consisted of Mr Norman Birkett, KC (Chairman); the Rt
Hon Sir George Clerk, CGM, GCB; Sir Arthur Hazlerigg, Bart; and Mr