Chapter Four

Now Let’s Make It Listenable

Everybody Edits

WITH JUSTIN MCELROY

A Layer of Polish

With any luck, at this point, you’ve made a recording that you’re happy with and now you’re ready to start polishing it up. If not, back up and take another pass. We promised in the last chapter that we’d teach you how to edit to fix your mistakes, and now’s the time to do so. But keep in mind: while we’ve used editing plenty of times to turn a good episode into a very good one, we’ve not once been able to transform a dud into gold in the DAW. (You remember, right? Digital audio workstation? Of course you do.)

Yes, I said we’ve used editing. While it’s true that Griffin edits My Brother, My Brother and Me and Travis now handles The Adventure Zone, I still produce Sawbones, and besides, I taught them both everything they know.

The very most important, number one thing that you need to do before anything else, and we really can’t emphasize this enough: save your raw file as soon as you record it and hide it away. You want the freedom to experiment with your audio, but if you accidentally make it into a fart with all your machinations, you’ll want to be able to start again from scratch.

Is it safe? Is it safe? Okay, great, let’s move on.

If you were planning on skipping this section because your divine work doesn’t require second-guessing of any kind—don’t! Editing is how middling recordings turn out good and good recordings turn out amazing. Knowing that you have that card in your back pocket relieves so much pressure from the act of recording. Even if you feel like you’re putting up bricks, nothing has to hit the airwaves that you don’t want to.

A Brief Note

There are (basically) two different ways you can put your show together. There are obviously dozens of different subcategories within these two, but for reasons that will become immediately apparent, this bifurcation is a useful jumping-off point.

• The hard shows: These are your Serials, your Gimlet shows, your Radiolabs. Their creators pull together audio from a bunch of disparate sources and then use storytelling prowess, dozens of hours of editing, and a lifetime of broadcasting experience to build a compelling narrative that’ll leave the listener spellbound.
• Shows we know how to make: You know, boner shows for ding-dongs. People talking a bunch and then stopping after, like, an hour.

Listen, if you were hoping to read a book about podcasting that would somehow teach you how to instantly have a master’s degree in broadcasting from a top-tier college and an entry-level gig keeping bullies from throwing Ira Glass’s wallet down gutters, we’ve got bad news: you picked up the wrong book.

Joke’s on those bullies—Ira Glass wears a wallet chain. Wait, is that libel?

Exhaustively reported and finely edited shows like Serial, This American Life, Reply All, etc., are really hard to make and require years of professional training and audio tools we don’t have and . . . well, we just can’t help you there. Okay? If you make a show like those, though, please email us so we can listen to it.

Now that you understand our limitations (soon to be your limitations!), let’s get to work.

Making Your Masterpiece

In an ideal world, you won’t do your editing in a single pass but rather multiple passes with increasing levels of refinement. We’re not sculptors, but it’s basically exactly like making Michelangelo’s David.

So first things first, you need to cut out the parts you don’t want anybody to ever hear, stuff that’s not for public consumption. If we’re making David, this is the part where we chip off the plaque attached to our stone that reads PROPERTY OF DAVE’S GIANT MARBLE CHUNK EMPORIUM—DO NOT CARVE—IF FOUND, PLEASE CALL XVI-VIIV.

If you left the mics running when you went to the bathroom, if you said something embarrassing that you wouldn’t want anyone to hear, if you had a funny bit that included your Social Security number, cut those bits out now.

If you were marking obvious edit points in your recording track with a dog training clicker or silent pauses like we suggested, these obvious warts would likely be the ones you’ve already marked for removal. (Cut the dog clicks and silences now too, by the way.)

Once in a great while, we’ve been able to find a use for these off-mic bits. Once our Nonnee barged in on our dad while he was recording, and he talked to her about French onion soup, and it was perfect for the episode, so we left it in. If you think something might be useful at some point, pull it into a separate file or track on your DAW rather than delete it. Eventually, you’ll have hours’ worth and you can take a week off by posting a “Too Hot 4 Podcasting” episode of bloopers and outtakes. You’re welcome.

The Content Pass

Next, you have to figure out what you want to keep and how to weave those strands into a cohesive listening experience. We’re chipping out arms and legs and a head and maybe just the hint of a crotch. It looks like a human, but not David.

The best possible way to do this is also the most time consuming. Listen through the entire thing and note the edits you want to make with markers in your DAW or by writing down time codes on paper. Why not just make the edits as you go? Well, you can, but there’s always a chance that you’ve referenced those bits later in the show and that you could lose the listener if they’ve been cut. We can’t tell you the number of times we had an unfunny fifteen seconds that we cut only to find that we built a solid two minutes on top of that moment later in the show that we also had to cut, which spiraled into half the show, until we eventually just went and put the bad fifteen seconds back in. Editing is always easier (and in the end faster) when you know exactly what you have to work with.

The good news is that over time you’ll get a better grasp of editing “in the moment.” It’s better to say, “Wait, let me go back,” than try to make something work for twenty minutes, only to have to spend hours editing around it later.

The rigorousness of your edit depends on what kind of thing you want to create. Let’s say you’re pulling out only the best bits, trying to reduce an hour of audio into a tight twenty minutes. In that case, it’s probably more useful to pull the choice clips that definitely work into a separate track until you have something that approximates a show. (This is the way I edit The McElroy Brothers Will Be in “Trolls World Tour,” which is sort of a parody of those very good shows I don’t know how to make.)

If you want something more conversational, you should be looking for things to remove that break the flow. Leaving in the occasional diversion or tangent might be okay—you just don’t want it to derail the show entirely.

It can be helpful to leave large spaces between big chunks of good audio, to help you keep track of what you have to work with. Most DAWs will allow you to glue those functional segments together, maybe even label or color-code them, all of which can make it much easier to put together a final product.

If you get lost in the weeds here, this is useful: remind yourself that in putting out a podcast, you’re asking listeners for their most valuable resource—minutes of their life that they will never get back. A lot of pressure, right? It is! But it’s also a useful way to think about editing. If the answer to “Is this five minutes of material worth five minutes of someone’s life?” is “No!” then cut it. Editing out our cruft is, in a sense, a moral act and a way of showing your listeners you value them.

The Polishing Pass

The intensity of this last step will vary from show to show and may, indeed, evolve for your show over the years. You can spend hours making your piece pristine and museum-worthy, or you, like us most of the time, can tape a sign to your horrific rock man that says THIS IS DAVID. It’s your call.

The occasional chair creaking isn’t a big deal on a conversational show like My Brother, My Brother and Me. Hell, if it’s loud enough, we might be able to milk five minutes of material out of giving the offender guff for it. It wouldn’t work as well on a more focused show like Sawbones that’s a little more buttoned down and educational in tone.

The one bit of polish you almost certainly want to do is remove any evidence that you’ve made edits. There are certainly tons of articles explaining how to do this scientifically, but the best method we’ve found is just listening. Our inflection tends to rise and fall in patterns, and if you cut something mid-sentence, it’ll often just feel off. The solution (sadly) is that you’ll probably have to trim more than you want to avoid it sounding clunky.

You can insert cross-fades to mitigate some of the weirdness. The cross-fade basically lowers the volume on the first clip of sound while raising the volume on the second clip to create something that sounds more natural. Your DAW can almost certainly do this automatically.

All this stuff is hard to communicate with text or pictures of waveforms, but trust us, when you listen to your track, you’ll know exactly what a bad edit point sounds like. Cut it out or cut around it until it sounds right.

Making these adjustments can feel fiddly, but there’s nothing more distracting than noticeable editing. Immediately, the listener starts thinking about what they might be missing, distracting them from whatever great joke you just made about millennial wolfmen or whatever.

A more intense version of the polishing pass includes cutting all or some filler words such as “like” or “um.” Even if you don’t notice them in your day-to-day speech, these things will drive you crazy once you start looking for them. If you want something that sounds more professional, and you don’t mind the work, you may want to nix them.

It’s worth noting that all the “likes” and “ums” aren’t always deadweight; they’re often communicating something. For example, maybe you’re unsure of exactly what you’re trying to get across, and the “um” is communicating a certain hesitance. That may not be how you want to come across in every episode, but a little bit of filler is part of how most people speak naturally, and doing away with all of those little verbal quirks can shed a little bit of humanity or intimacy in the process.

I would say the same for silence. While you can generally cut it, sometimes silence really makes a moment land. Like if one of your brothers has just said something profound about mangoes. Sitting in silence can drive home how amazing it was.

It’s Your David

The important thing about editing your show is remembering that it is, in fact, your show. Other than sloppy edits or leaving in the bit where your racist uncle barged into your office and started spouting his extremely unpalatable theories, there’s not really a wrong way to do this.

You know the show you want to make and how natural or professional you want it to sound, or if you don’t know already, you will once you’ve spent some time editing. You may not have the expertise to achieve that. Hell, you may just not have the time. (This stuff is a lot of work for probably zero money at first.) The important thing is that you keep tinkering until you can release something that you’re proud of.

We could bloviate all day about this, but there’s really just no substitute for hopping into your DAW and messing around with some audio until you’re totally comfortable. Record yourself reading the mail, listen for hiccups, and edit them out. If it sounds weird after your edit, undo your changes and try again. You’ll get there. Hell, if we did it, you certainly can.

Music

WITH GRIFFIN MCELROY

I’d like to formally welcome you to the section of the book where we are, without argument, the furthest from our area of expertise that we can get. If it were possible for a book to include a second, smaller book written by a more qualified person, tucked inside the larger book like a secret gun in a hollowed-out Bible, I would almost certainly do that here.

If it were me, I’d hide the gun in a hollowed-out book about guns so I wouldn’t lose it.

Music is an essential part of every podcast, in the sense that every podcast I’ve ever heard has music in it at some point. At the same time, sourcing that music can potentially be a tricky process, depending on the rights reserved on the song used and the nature of how the podcast uses it.

What makes for good music for your podcast’s purposes is completely subjective. You might like completely different styles of music from what I like or your audience does. Not every song you like is going to be compatible with the show you’re hoping to produce.

You can see what a kettle of fish this section is to write—I can’t tell you what music is good, and I also can’t tell you the ins and outs of copyright law (spoiler alert: I am not a copyright lawyer). I super can’t do that last part, because you might be a cop. If you’re a cop, you legally have to tell me or else it’s entrapment.

Instead, I can break down the two main questions you have to answer when considering the use of music in your new, chart-topping podcast: How do you find music, and what’s the best way to use it?

Sourcing Music for Your Podcast

I have good news and bad news. First, the bad. You’re not going to be able to legally use Coldplay’s “Viva La Vida” as your podcast’s theme song. I’m sorry for being so blunt, but there’s no point dancing around the subject. Unless your uncle works for Coldplay and can get you in a room with Chris Martin, or you saved Chris Martin from a burning building and he owes you a life debt or something—it’s not going to happen. Banish the thought.

It’s a natural instinct to hear a piece of popular music and envision its use as a theme song or background dressing for a dramatic scene, but the fact of the matter is that popular music is almost certainly going to be out of your podcast’s reach. Most music from major recording artists with label representation has the shit copyrighted out of it, and it would likely be exorbitantly expensive for you to use legally.

Now, the good news: there are a lot of other ways of finding music for your show! You might not get that first song you wanted, but the great thing about music is that there is so much of it, and a lot of it is far more accessible than Coldplay’s body of work.

Double good news! People already have a lot of memories attached to super well-known songs. Finding a lesser-known song will allow people to associate it with memories of your show!

Here are four ways of finding music for your show, all of which are methods we’ve used for our podcasts in the past.

You can, if you have the means, license a copyrighted song. Yes, I know what I just said—licensing the work of a huge band like Coldplay or the Beatles is going to cost a buck-wild amount of cash, but smaller acts may be able to offer a more affordable agreement. There are a few major music license database websites you could peruse for inspiration—places like Machinimasound and Musicbed have fairly affordable licenses for bespoke tunes. You could also reach out to a musical act via a publicly accessible contact page or its label and find out how much a license for its work would cost you. Just keep in mind that amount is going to fluctuate depending on the popularity of the song and the nature of how you want to use it. Is it for a single episode? For a theme song? For a season? For life?

The less legally sound method of approaching the above is to just obtain written permission to use a song in your podcast. Maybe your friend is in a band, and they tell you it’s cool for you to use one of their songs. Maybe you reach out to an indie artist you love, and they tell you over email it’s no sweat. You’re more than likely in the clear to use it as permitted, but keep in mind that this provides you with very little legal ass-covering in the grand scheme of things. (Also, artists deserve compensation for their work. We weren’t respectful enough of this fact when we started, but it’s totally true. Whatever you can do to support the artist who has chosen to support you isn’t just going to be appreciated, it’s the necessary gesture to keep this great wheel of art a-spinnin’.)

Here’s an interesting tidbit that may surprise you: Even if you can get a recording artist to give you permission to use their music in your show, they may not actually have the right to do that. Rights to use music commercially are retained by publishing companies, and they can (and probably will) still scream at you even if your pal Robbie Williams granted you the rights to use “Let Me Entertain You” in a tweet. Anyway, make sure you get the right people to sign off.

One great way to fill your podcast with beautiful, professional-sounding music is to source it from a collection of Creative Commons works. A Creative Commons license allows you to use creative works for free, provided you follow whatever stipulations each artist requires for said usage. Maybe it’s attribution for the original artist, or maybe it’s that you don’t include their work in a commercial product. These stipulations are super easy to adhere to and open up so many options for you to explore. CreativeCommons.org has a fantastic list of websites chock-full of music you can use; the Free Music Archive and ccMixter are also great resources. YouTube has a really extensive library as well.

Finally, you can make music your own damn self! It’s legally sound, it doesn’t require you to get permission or follow anyone else’s licensing terms, it doesn’t cost you a penny, and it gives you access to the infinite symphonies swimming around your dome, just itching to break free. Don’t know how to make music? That is, of course, a bottleneck. But there are lots of DAWs (like GarageBand, which comes free on Macs and iOS devices) that include premade loops that anyone can experiment with and cobble together into a song. And hey, maybe while doing so, you’ll learn what makes a composition good and pick up some skills that will help you create a song from scratch! Just look up some YouTube tutorials and start poking around!

There are so many ways to find a good song for your podcast, but the best piece of advice I can give you is to stay flexible while hunting for that one ideal track. Don’t get your heart set on a song, only to find out its license is unavailable or exorbitantly expensive. Really hunt around until you find the perfect music—in terms of both its fit for your show and its accessibility to you, a responsible, law-abiding podcast creator.

Using Music in Your Podcast

Okay, so you have an ethically and legally sourced piece of music you want to use in your show, and now you want to know the best way to effectively deploy it in your next episode. At least, I hope that’s something you want to know. It’s entirely possible that you took your song and then just dropped it, full blast, right on top of your show’s erudite discussion about the latest episode of Supernatural or whatever. I’m hoping that’s not the case and that the following paragraphs can help you avert that tragic fate.

First things first: your theme song.

God, please pick a good theme song.

I wrote about the friction-free nature of podcasts as a medium earlier—listeners pay nothing for your show and won’t hesitate to turn it off after being exposed to an unpleasant aural experience. Your theme song is, most likely, the first thing people hear, and therefore it could easily make or break your podcast. Don’t let all your recapping of the Winchester brothers’ monster-hunting antics go to waste! Make your theme song something that your listeners will be excited to hear every time they hear it.

Again, musical taste is subjective, so I can talk only in general rules, using my personal preferences as a guide.

Make sure your theme song isn’t, for lack of a better word, shrill. I’m not endorsing the use of Muzak, but simply suggesting that your listeners are going to hear the song you’ve chosen a lot. There are certain sounds that can start to get grating when listened to ad nauseam. For example, say you want to use some chiptunes in your video game podcast. Great! Just keep in mind that a song featuring piercing, high-pitched sawtooth synths in the opening seconds of your show might prove to be too much to bear for some sensitive-eared audience members.

To this point, use headphones when choosing music for your show. It will give you a better idea of how most folks will actually be experiencing your show.

If your theme song features vocals, make sure they don’t distract from the content of your show—especially if the song underscores the show’s dialogue at any point. For example, if the intro fades out as you start talking or cuts in as you go to a commercial break. Hearing one person talk while another sings can make it difficult for the brain to understand either.

Also, be sure to look up what the lyrics actually are before you use it. You don’t want to get fifty episodes in before you discover that your theme song is about kicking puppies or something.

You probably don’t need me to tell you to pick a theme song that matches the vibe of your show, but darn, I’ve gone ahead and done it anyway. Opening up your true crime podcast with the iconic guitar riff from “Jessica” by the Allman Brothers would be . . . actually, forget what I was about to say. That would be fucking incredible. Do exactly that.

Try to pick a theme song with sections that naturally lend themselves to be your show’s intro, outro, and, if necessary, interstitial music. For example, we picked “(It’s a) Departure” by the Long Winters (thanks, John!) as the theme song for My Brother, My Brother and Me, partially because its intro is a high-energy intro for our show, its outro is a good outro for our show, and its bridge works well as our pad music as we go into commercial breaks. That might not be true of another song—maybe one with a slow and plodding intro or a meandering close.

Now, that’s just advice for picking your theme song—what about a song you’ve chosen as background music for a segment, whether it’s accompaniment to a nonfiction show or the score of a fiction podcast? What’s the best way to drop that in your show? Mixing is a fine art that, to be completely frank, I do not feel nearly qualified enough to give advice on, and I have been editing podcasts professionally for ten years. Tweaking your spoken word, your background music, and whatever other tracks you’ve plopped onto your project timeline and then ensuring that their respective volumes are balanced in perfect, constant harmony—yeah, that’s a tough putt.

Just starting out, though, I’d recommend erring on the side of caution. There’s no rule for how much quieter your background music should be than the rest of your show. That varies quite a bit, depending on the dynamics and pitch of the song and speaker. Instead of dialing in that exact amount, just make sure that your music is turned down to the point where the spoken word content of your show is clear and understandable. Then turn the music down some more. Remember, you know what those spoken words are. You or your cohosts said them. Your brain might tell you it can hear those words over the music, when really, it’s just remembering them over the music.

Securing music for your show is hard enough; don’t make it something that actively detracts from the content of the show.

Another editing tip, as long as I’m harping, is to give your music nice, smooth fades and transitions whenever you incorporate it. After the main theme of our show plays, I like to give it a nice, slow fade to silence over about ten seconds or so. When an interstitial song plays in The Adventure Zone, I like to slowly, quietly fade it in under the dialogue for ten seconds or so, before fading it all the way in as the segment ends. Most editing software will let you create envelopes on your tracks, allowing you to manually set their volume at specific points in the timeline. Some even include fade tools, letting you highlight a segment of audio, apply the fade, and get on with the rest of your day.

There’s one last thing to talk about in this section, and I’ve hesitated to talk about it up until now, because it’s so complicated and abstract and above my pay grade. It’s time to talk about fair use.

Say you want to make a music criticism podcast where you and your cohosts play clips of new music to inspire conversation and give your audience context for your discussion. That’s going to require you to include a lot of music in your show—a lot of music that, most likely, is going to require costly licenses. Can’t you just . . . do it? Because of fair use?

Maybe!

There is literally no other answer to that question. Fair use isn’t a hard-and-fast rule; it’s a set of considerations that can help determine whether the unlicensed use of a copyrighted work is legally sound. It is open to interpretation—even if you follow its principles to the letter, it’s still not an impenetrable legal bulwark against the copyright holder’s interests.

If you want to include music in your show claiming fair use, there are a few things you need to ask yourself first.

Has anyone out there ever dreamed of watching a grown man pull several paragraphs of legal-sounding text out of his ass? Keep your eyes on my brother as he does exactly that!

Are you transforming the work by including it in your show? For example, are you using it for criticism—like in the example above—news reporting, education, or research? Are you changing its purpose in the way that you use it, rather than trying to substitute its purpose? Are you using the copyrighted work in a nonprofit or noncommercial manner? Bear in mind: this is not the be-all and end-all determination. Coldplay can still come after you, even if your show isn’t making any money.

How much of the copyrighted work are you including, and how important is the section you included? Here’s where things get messy. Did you include too much of a song in your podcast? That is completely up to interpretation. Also, did you include the most essential part of said music? What does that even mean? Does the guitar riff from “Jessica” qualify as the “core” of that song’s essence?

Now you see how fair use isn’t a reliable tool for argument: it can mean anything. And, also, nothing.

And everything. And something. And two things and new things.

Does your inclusion of the copyrighted work harm the potential value of said work? In short, will people listen to a song on your podcast and then not go buy said song from a reputable vendor, robbing the artist from a hard-earned sale? Because that would be bad, and it would also make your usage less applicable for fair use.

To summarize: claiming “fair use” when arguing the legality of your unlicensed use of copyrighted music in your podcast is tantamount to claiming that you’re allowed to use Coldplay’s “Viva La Vida” because Chris Martin gave you permission in a dream. It might work? If your usage of that music falls on the right side of the above criteria, you’re certainly more likely to be protected—but again, it’s not a sure thing.

I feel like I have to say again, here, legally, that I am not a lawyer. Nothing above is prescriptive. If this book is evidence in a court of law during a copyright infringement case, and you’re a lawyer reading this out loud during my deposition or whatever: I never said I was a lawyer. They did these terrible, terrible things of their own volition and should feel just awful about it.

Whew, that was a close one.

Seeking Feedback

WITH TRAVIS MCELROY

All right, friends, we’ve reached a precipice. You got the equipment, you recorded a show, and you edited it. That’s all the easy stuff. Now, it’s time for another human being to listen to your audio baby with their human ears. Seeking feedback can be scary, but there is good news! With a few tips and tricks it can be a smooth and painless process.

Who to Ask

First, and most important, everything is subjective! If one of your feedbackers says that they don’t like something, it can feel like you should just go ahead and cut it. But what if the thing they don’t like is something you love? Time to take a step back and really think about it. Do you love it because you put a lot of work into it or because the finished product is good? Is the reviewer the target audience for the segment/subject in question? Is there a middle ground where you may be able to make some minor changes to end up with something you both like? In the end, it is up to you whether you keep it or kill your darling.

Travis has killed, like, a thousand podcasts he’s piloted. You should pay attention, because he’s definitely the authority on this.

Yeah, I just don’t think we can overstate what an extensive knowledge of failure that Travis possesses. It’s a miracle he’s still doing this, frankly.

This is why it is important that the people who you ask for feedback are people whose opinions you trust. It can be tempting to ask your most enthusiastically supportive friend, but that might not be the feedback you need. A good rule is to seek opposite feedback from how you feel about the show. Think it’s perfect? Ask your most analytical friend! Think it’s terrible? Ask your most supportive! The important thing is the trust factor. You might be getting big notes from these people and it is going to be up to you to decide whether to implement them.

Also, limit the number of people you ask for feedback. I would suggest keeping it between three and five. Too many more than that and you start to run the risk of getting a big jumble of conflicting feedback. Additionally, it’s more people to hound to get them to listen and deliver their thoughts. Start small—you can always ask more people after the first round of feedback.

When it comes to who to pick, it could be anyone! A friend, a family member, a coworker—anyone you want! I would recommend a few guidelines. In a perfect world, the person you pick would tick all three of the following boxes:

• You trust their opinion.
• They are a regular podcast listener.
• They have an interest in the subject matter or a related subject.

It can, of course, be hard to find someone who checks off all three. In that case, I have ordered them from most important to least. As I have said, trust is very important in picking your feedbacker. Next, an understanding of the form and feel of podcasts helps inform their feedback. It can be hard for someone who has never listened to a podcast to tell you how to make yours better since they have nothing to compare it with. When it comes to interest in the subject matter, this one is least important to me. There are many shows that I appreciate even though the topic discussed is of little interest to me. I would just recommend avoiding questions about the subject unless you know that they are adept at objective judgment.

What to Ask

The time has come for me to give you the most valuable secret I have when it comes to seeking feedback. Are you ready? I can wait if you want to go get a drink first. All right, here it is. Be specific in your ask. Did you get that? I’ll repeat: be specific in your ask. Just saying, “So, what did you think?” does you no good. You’re likely to get something along the lines of “It was good!” Who does that help? No one, that’s who. Before you give the episode to someone to listen, think about all the things about the show that you are unsure about. Then, when you give it to someone, say, “Could you do me a favor? Take a listen to this and let me know what you think about the pacing and the transitions,” or whatever your concerns happen to be.

It’s useful to think about feedback in terms of what human beings are hardwired to like. We don’t like telling friends they made something bad. But when we get the opportunity to tweak something to make it just a little better? We love that. We could do that all day long.

Along those same lines, avoid leading and yes/no questions. They tend to stifle discussion and limit usable feedback. “Did you like the intro music?” “Yes.” Does that mean they liked it for the show or that they would listen to it in their car without the show? What did they like about it? Are they just saying yes because that is what they think you want to hear? You’ll get a more helpful response asking, “What did the intro music make you feel about the show?”

Other examples of what to avoid:

“Was it too long?”

“Was it boring?”

“Does the title make sense?”

Instead, try asking:

“What did you think about the length?” or “How was the pacing?”

“What are your thoughts on the subject matter?”

“What does the title tell you about the show?”

Figure out these questions ahead of time and give them to your feedbackers when you send them the episode. Guidance is always appreciated, and if you have avoided leading questions, they won’t feel limited. Having been on the other side of this several times, let me tell you that being asked, “What did you think about the transition music?” and realizing that you didn’t pay attention to the transition music isn’t a great feeling.

If you have more than, say, three or four questions you want to ask, break them up among your feedbackers. You don’t want to overload your friend/family member/coworker with a lengthy homework assignment. Remember, unless you have worked out some kind of trade deal or arranged to pay them in some way, they are doing you a favor.

How to Ask

This may seem obvious, but email them the audio file directly even if you asked them to listen to it face-to-face. Giving someone a bunch of search terms or a URL to remember is a good way to make sure that they never listen to the episode. You want to make it as easy as possible for them. The email is also a great way to have all your questions in one place that they can easily refer back to.

Lazy friend pro tip: Put it on YouTube and set it to unlisted, then email your friends a link. They can stream it anywhere with the click of a button.

When you ask, gently give them a deadline. Something along the lines of “I’m hoping to put this up by the end of the week, but I’d love your feedback before I do!” or “I’d love to hear your thoughts over coffee this weekend, my treat!” Listen, I know that it might seem weird to ask for a favor and in the same breath give them a time limit, but trust me when I say that they will appreciate it. If you just say, “When you get a chance!” that could mean never. Even if someone really does intend to help you out, other things can get in the way. If it doesn’t seem to have any urgency, your podcast is just going to get bumped down the list. Worse, it might get completely forgotten.

By giving them a gentle deadline, you are saving yourself from having to follow up and making them feel bad for not getting to it yet. You don’t want it to become a chore that carries any kind of negative connotation to it. Setting up plans to get together for coffee or lunch or even a Skype video call makes it instead feel like a fun event to look forward to!

Provided you are a madman like my brother for whom social appointments are palatable, if not delightful. I prefer my feedback digitally transmitted to me through a cold, unfeeling screen like all other sane people.

Using the Feedback

So, you have hopefully received feedback from a couple sources . . . now what? Now you have to work on implementing said feedback. I’ll refer you back to the beginning of this section and remind you that you don’t have to use every piece of input gathered. That said, it is important that you carefully think through the feedback you receive. I hate to spring this on you, but you are never going to stop receiving feedback. Between reviews, social media, and people you meet in real life, you will never be able to escape the slew of thoughts and opinions about your show.

This is wonderful! It means that people care enough about your show to form opinions! They either love it or want to help it grow! It can also help you improve as a host, a producer, and maybe even as a person! Feedback, whether positive or negative, means that people are invested! Huzzah!

However, it can also be a show killer. One of the biggest mistakes that people make early in their shows is to chase perfection based on audience input: “This person said they like segment A, so I’ll do more of that. This person said they don’t like segment B, so I’ll cut it.”

Listen, you can’t please everyone all the time (I just made that up), and not everyone is going to love everything about your show. The key is to be open to feedback while still staying true to your vision. You need to let the feedback you receive shape the show without letting it change it into something that you no longer feel connected to. It can be an incredibly tough balance to strike, but I believe in you.