CHAPTER 18: TALKING TO WOMEN

Language was invented for one reason, boys—to woo women—and, in that endeavor, laziness will not do.

—Robin Williams in the movie Dead Poets Society (1989)

Language is the heart of human courtship. If you can’t talk to women, they’re not going to have sex with you. If you can’t sustain good conversations, they won’t want to be your girlfriend. If you can’t resolve arguments constructively and respectfully, they won’t want to marry you.

The problem is, our society’s institutions don’t really teach conversation skills. School teaches us our ABCs and our vocabulary, parents show us how to be polite and say “please” and “thank you” when we want something. But those vital skills that support and create huge amounts of human interaction? Forget about it—you can figure that shit out on your own.

This is doubly true for mating conversations, where women and men have very different conversational styles, layered over very different goals, depending on the stage of life they’re in. And you’re left to fend for yourself.

The way most guys think of it, conversation is direct verbal communication between people (talking, texting, etc.) that serves one of these purposes:

1. to communicate some news, facts, ideas, or thoughts to another person (inform, like a newscaster)

2. to get the other person to do something through persuasion (influence, like a salesman)

3. to argue a moral position or establish some objective truth (convince, like a philosopher)

Understanding this about conversation will make you better with parents, teachers, friends, colleagues, salespeople, and employers.

But it won’t help you at all in mating situations.

Because no one ever sits down and teaches you how conversation differs in mating, you’re left groping in the dark, getting drunk to dull the anxiety of uncertainty, and then resorting to pointing at your genitals like an animal, hoping she gets the picture.

THE PURPOSE OF CONVERSATION

Most guys think conversation is about the content of what they are saying, so they talk as much as possible. Or they think it’s about persuading women to like them (and thus have sex with them). Or, worse, they think it’s about arguing facts to arrive at some truth or consensus.

No, no, no. YOU don’t understand. I went to Harvard, drive a 5-series BMW, bought all your drinks and complimented you throughout the night. Ipso facto, I have made a prima facie case for the right to habeas your corpus.

This is completely, totally wrong. Conversation in a mating context is not about persuasion or argumentation.

In mating situations, the purpose of conversation is to indirectly signal your underlying traits and begin the process of connection to the other person.

She’s using your conversation to see if you are mentally stable, intelligent, kind, and empathetic. What you say and how you say it are windows into your soul. It’s the best way for her to find out who you are. Conversation is her information gathering technique to check you for all the attractiveness traits that are not directly observable.

And of course, this information signaling goes both ways. You are finding out just as much about her as she is about you, as long as you’re actively listening to her and not just staring at her tits while you wait for your turn to talk.

The big difference between normal conversation and mating conversation is directness. Mating conversations are primarily indirect. You know the old cliché that 93 percent of communication is nonverbal? Well that fifth-hand bullshit was based on outdated studies in a book from 1971.

But it’s still true that body language is really important to communication—because most of what is being communicated is not the words themselves but the traits and proofs that they signal.

We already talked about this when we explained “show, don’t tell.” For example, you can’t directly claim “I’m intelligent” and then proceed to convince a woman; you have to signal your intelligence to her indirectly by what you talk about and how you talk about it.

And if you’re doing things right, conversation isn’t just about indirectly signaling your underlying traits, it’s also a pivotal turning point in the mating dance. As we discussed at length in Steps 2 and 3, women are already evaluating you (based on your attractiveness, your clothing, how you move, etc.) before you say a word. Thus, conversation, if she even lets you initiate one, is the final attraction factor for her.

Conversation is the interaction where she determines the validity of her initial attraction to you and decides whether that initial attraction is something she wants to pursue.

THE EIGHT BASIC RULES OF GOOD CONVERSATION WITH A WOMAN

If you were hoping for a checklist of things to say to a woman, you’re not only out of luck, you’re thinking about the subject all wrong. Every conversation with every woman will be different. That being said, there are some general principles you can apply in every situation.

We have found that the process for good conversation of any kind boils down to eight foundational rules:

1. Be a good host.

You probably feel self-conscious initiating and engaging in small talk. Well, guess what? Any woman you talk to is probably feeling that same apprehension and insecurity. She may be relieved, maybe even impressed, if you commit to taking the lead. That’s why the first step in starting conversations with women is to see yourself as the host (as opposed to a follower or a guest) in any situation.

The host is in charge, and his job is to facilitate conversation. He’s active, not passive, and takes the initiative in talking with people, guiding the conversation, filling in awkward pauses, introducing people, and making others feel comfortable and welcome.

Just putting yourself in the host mindset automatically changes how you approach women and boosts your confidence. Whereas the interloper worries about his own discomfort because he doesn’t know everyone in the group, the host focuses on other people’s social comfort and asks, “Who’s here that doesn’t know everyone? I’ll make sure everybody’s introduced to each other and feels comfortable chatting.”

The next step is to transfer this warmth and openness to your nonverbal behavior.

2. SOFTEN your body language.

Long before you interact verbally, women make snap judgments about you based on your body language and facial expressions. Body language that is warm and inviting will draw others to you and make them feel comfortable conversing.

Psychologist Arthur Wassmer, Ph.D., came up with a great acronym for good body language. He called it SOFTEN:

Smile: Having a warm, sincere, friendly smile puts people at ease and is the number-one nonverbal cue for signaling your openness and warmth. After you make eye contact with someone, give her a big, genuine smile. If you’re not used to smiling warmly, just practice—it’s a highly learnable skill.

Open posture: Instead of standing angled away from people, with your arms crossed or in your pockets, face others directly, with your limbs taking up some space. An open posture is a clear signal of openness and confidence.

Forward lean: Leaning forward when you are listening or speaking shows someone you are paying attention. Adding a slight head tilt shows that you’re comfortable with them and trust them. Another nonverbal movement to try and maintain is a slightly lower chin angle. This is especially effective if you are taller, to avoid the impression of looking down your nose at her when she speaks.

Touch: No, we’re not talking about groping every woman you meet. Instead, use a good, strong handshake, where the web between your thumb and pointer finger meets theirs, to convey confidence and vitality. Obviously, shaking hands with a woman doesn’t make sense in all social situations, so don’t use this if it is too formal. Some women are huggers. If you find yourself in that situation, just try to match her level of closeness and firmness. Don’t engulf her in a bear hug like you’re about to wrestle her into a panel van and put a bag over her head.

Eye contact: Making eye contact shows you’re confident, builds intimacy, and helps her feel at ease. Having shifty, leering eyes codes deeply in the mammalian brain as predatory, so do not look at women and then quickly look away as if embarrassed to be seen. It’s OK to lock eyes with a woman for a beat or two, especially if you smile. Just don’t track her around the party like a serial killer. You’re not Dexter.

Nod: Whenever you listen to a woman speak, demonstrate that you’re focused and interested in what she has to say by nodding occasionally and using other forms of feedback as well, like “uh-huhs” and “hmmms.”

3. Establish commonality.

It’s no coincidence that the “Do you know _____?” game is the dominant pattern in small talk. And almost every other pattern breaks down to finding commonalities (work, school, social groups).

Women do this because they want to use that information to make a judgment about you and your social proof. If you know a few of the same people, you’re automatically in a much better position because your connection to her existing social network makes her feel safe with you. And as we’ve established, safety is a deep and meaningful unconscious need of hers—ignore it at your sexless peril.

There are other ways to establish commonality as well. You can ask the typical questions—where she’s from, where she works, what she likes to do—and see if there’s any overlap. You can also ask about features you both have, though probably at different ends of the spectrum: “How tall are you?” “Do you like having short/long hair?” Chances are you’ve wrestled with opinions (yours and others’) on various physical features. God knows she has—probably since she was old enough to compare herself unfavorably to the Barbies she played with. The very act of having wrestled with these opinions provides common ground.

If you haven’t gotten to those questions yet, however, and you are just looking for a way in, a fairly reliable way to establish a shared social connection is to make an observation on your current “mutual shared reality.” Point out something obvious or noteworthy about what you are both experiencing. If you’re in the same place by chance—a Whole Foods checkout line or an elevator—you can say something like, “I love Whole Foods, but I’d prefer to not have to spend my whole paycheck to shop here.” Or “do your ears ever pop when you’re going up in an elevator really fast?”

Don’t worry about your opener being obvious, superficial, or even trite; in fact, that’s actually better than if it’s overly witty or incisive, because it feels more safe and familiar to her. You’re not trying to stake out your ground on the topic or “run game at her,” you’re simply trying to extend a harmless invitation to chat, and she knows it.

This is the most polite way to do it because it gives her the choice to engage, and choice emboldens trust. Save your verbal fireworks for later, after she’s reassured that you can do normal small talk.

And if you are in the same place by choice—CrossFit or improv class—then making an observation about your shared environment or experience is even easier (which is why we recommend doing so many activities with women, because it makes this initial conversation so simple and stress-free).

4. Gauge and respond to feedback.

Once you have begun a conversation with a woman (and even before it starts), it’s absolutely crucial that you measure her responses to your words, and adjust accordingly. Specifically, you need to be attuned to her level of comfort.

If she seems comfortable, then keep talking to her and move the conversation forward.

If she seems uncomfortable, change course and try to understand what caused the discomfort so you can avoid it in the future.

Learning to accurately read female comfort and discomfort cues will help you decipher what they are thinking and how to charm them. This is something that most guys are terrible at, so even being half-decent makes you stand out in a positive way.

The important thing to remember here about gauging feedback is that it’s not something you do only once. You should be taking her emotional temperature constantly and responding to it from beginning to end. That’s how conversations go from bad to good and good to great, and how relationships grow from acquaintance to friend and from friend to friend with benefits.

5. Don’t Act Too Excited or Too Aloof.

Studies consistently show that ratings of a conversation partner are more strongly influenced by delivery style, rather than content, and style is almost all emotional.

A lot of guys think they have to “be confident,” which usually ends up reading as overexcitement. Or they feel anxious, which they compensate for by projecting aloofness. These are both unattractive.

When you are talking to a woman, especially at the beginning of the conversation, you need to project calmness and comfort to her.

This does not mean to “play it cool” like you’re some kind of 1950s Mr. Slick. This isn’t fucking Grease. The best thing you can do to project a calm attitude is be attentive, observant, and interested while staying emotionally centered.

To keep your delivery in the attractive range—when you’re talking to a woman who doesn’t know you well yet—make sure to speak clearly and slowly. Purposely slow down your delivery and take pauses.

This makes you sound more credible than fast-talkers, and helps you avoid coming across as an overeager used-car salesman. Slower speech also makes it easier to lower your voice pitch, and deeper is more attractive.

6. Ask questions and actively listen to her responses.

Charlie Rose makes millions and has a collection of friends that reads like a cross between the Forbes billionaire list and Wikipedia, and he earned it all by asking great questions and then listening to the answers. Learning those skills probably won’t make you rich and famous, but it could very well get you laid, so listen up.

For women, conversation is about establishing connections and negotiating relationships. Because they have to listen in order to find common ground, most women tend to be good listeners.

Most guys, on the other hand, spend more time thinking about what to say next or wondering what the woman’s nipples look like than listening to what she actually has to say.

Among men, talk is primarily a means to establish status in a hierarchical social order. They do this by exhibiting knowledge and skill and by getting attention through verbal performances like storytelling, joking, or mansplaining. In a mating context, approaching conversation like a tennis match comes off as bragging and obnoxious.

Don’t look at conversation this way—at least not with women you are interested in. Instead, think of conversation with women as a detective game, in which your goal is to learn as much about the woman as you can by asking good questions and actually listening to the answers. If you go into the conversation knowing there is something very interesting about her, and you are determined to discover it, the questions will flow naturally.

Here are some best practices to jumpstart your new “detective game” approach:

Make the conversation about her:

This doesn’t mean you don’t talk, it just means you put the focus on her in order to get her to open up and tell her story. When you discover what’s interesting about her and connect over it, then you can bridge into a more mutual exchange, where you talk more.

Focusing the conversation on her reveals your kindness, empathy, and social intelligence. And it provides you with the details you need to find common ground.

For instance, if you are really into cool mobile games and you find out that she is too, it will do two things: (1) it will create a connection between you that could lead to other things, and (2) it will make the conversation easy for a long period of time, as you discuss that shared interest.

Ask open-ended questions:

Most people love to talk about themselves; they just want an interested audience and a little spurring. Open-ended questions do just that.

These are the questions that don’t require a simple yes or no answer—the who, what, where, when, why, how questions that give people the space and opportunity to really open up and tell you about themselves, all while taking the pressure off you to supply interesting conversation.

The gateway to open-ended questions is finding commonalities during the initial phase of your conversation, as we discussed earlier. Start with questions that can be answered with one or two words (“what’s your favorite new game?”), and then build from there, asking clarifying questions about her answers until she gets on a roll and the conversation becomes virtually self-sustaining.

Remember: you should be gauging and responding to her feedback from your questions the entire time. If you ask about where she grew up and she rolls her eyes, stop that line of questioning and take a different tack.

Look at her, and use encouragers:

We know it’s obvious, but you need to look at women when they talk to you.

Yes, we get that you can listen to her completely and watch the football game on the TV at the same time; so can we. But she will interpret your focus on other things as disinterest, and then she will lose interest in you.

Encouragers are simple body language indicators—like we talked about earlier—head nods or verbal cues (“uh huh,” “yes,” “right,” “totally”) that show you are listening. Don’t use too many—that comes off as desperate. Just use enough so it’s clear you are engaged with her and not pretending to pay attention.

AVOID interruptions:

Do you like being interrupted? Of course not, and neither does she.

Good listeners know never, ever to interrupt—not even if the impulse to do so comes from excitement about something she says. No matter how great your comment, cutting her off is only going to produce a reflexive negative response (at best, frustration; at worst, resentment). Let her finish, and then pause and speak slowly and calmly in response.

The one exception is if she’s trailing off with a story or comment that’s going nowhere, and she clearly wants to be rescued from conversational failure. In that case, by jumping in you’re defending her from embarrassment, not just interrupting her.

7. Respond with validation, insight, or debate.

Conversations are a two-way street. Active listening doesn’t mean you sit quietly for hours and agree with everything she says—that is passive and unattractive. It means you engage and respond accordingly. There are three basic ways to respond in conversation:

Validation

From an early age, each of us has sought the validation that comes with acceptance, and that continues right into adulthood. The degree to which an individual requires validation varies, but it remains one of the fundamental human desires and, as such, is one of the most powerful ways to connect with people, especially if it is used authentically and honestly.

One of the best ways to validate someone is through conversation. Showing interest (active listening) and then offering comforting, kind words. Respecting their thoughts and opinions. Empathizing with their point of view instead of trying to change it. All those things are conversation-based forms of validation.

Insight

The word “insight” feels profound, but it boils down to saying something that is relevant to the topic at hand and that also brings something new to the conversation. If you share an interest in something, like eating paleo, then you both will have a lot to say about it, and you should offer insight where you have it.

Generally speaking, insight is one of the most effective ways to display your traits to women in conversation; it shows you have the verbal and emotional intelligence to get what she’s saying and form an appropriate response.

Debate

Active listening is great, and validation is good too, but the fastest way to get put in the friend zone is to blindly agree with everything a woman says—that’s too much tender and not enough defender. No one likes a yes-man, and women find them especially unattractive.

Disagreeing with a woman is perfectly fine, and so is debate on issues you legitimately disagree about (FYI, a “woman’s place is in the home” is not one of those issues).

Women will often test your intelligence, knowledge, and confidence with a bit of verbal sparring about abstract topics like politics, religion, economics, or morals. If you’re just getting to know each other, chances are she is far less interested in the actual topics than she is in learning about you.

Any experienced woman knows that men won’t agree with everything she says or does. The question she is asking herself is not “does he agree with my thoughts on everything,” but instead “how does he respond when we don’t agree?” Everything you say will be interpreted as an insight into your character and values.

In order to debate effectively (and attractively) with a woman, you may need to reframe your usual approach. When men disagree, they tend to use that disagreement as a way to “fight” to establish dominance. Women do not see arguments that way, especially not with men they are attracted to.

If you approach debates with women from a male-centric perspective, you will lose all of them, because more often than not, women are focused on your disagreement style rather than the merits of your argument—which is probably what you are focusing on.

Here is where you mix validation and debate. Take the time to understand her point of view (without disparaging it) before offering your own. If you debate with her in a way that validates her right to have an opinion and makes an effort to understand her point, even if you disagree with it, you’ll be fine.

8. Connect with vulnerability.

We all have thoughts and feelings that we keep close to the chest, from emotionally damaging memories to unpopular views on sensitive subjects. We hide all of this from the world, until we find ourselves in a great conversation, connected enough to feel safe. Conversations move from “normal” to deep and meaningful when we start to open up and share these unpopular ideas or uncomfortable emotions.

Vulnerability isn’t weakness; it’s actually very powerful in conversation, when used correctly. When you “bare your neck,” so to speak, and you find the courage to share even a small tidbit that lets someone know you are afraid or lonely or unsure, the other person will immediately mirror your true feelings. It’s biology; she can’t help it. She will feel your pain, because she has it as well (albeit about something different), and that will bring the two of you instantly closer.

Getting comfortable with deep sharing is like earning a black belt in conversation: it isn’t something you use all the time, but having it gives you confidence, and your goal is to use it for good (as a means to deeper connection), not for bad (out of nervousness or because you can’t think of anything else to say).

Note: Vulnerability is last in this list for a reason. It should be used sparingly, only in the right situations. Tipping your vulnerability hand within the first ten minutes of meeting someone is almost always a bad idea. Within the first hour, probably still not good. But after several hours of great conversation, then it’s time to open up a bit more—not all at once, but little by little, making sure she comes with you for the ride.

HOW TO GET BETTER AT CONVERSATION

The thought of talking to a stranger makes some guys want to curl up in the fetal position. If that’s you, the first thing you have to do is stop beating yourself up about it and recognize that we all experience some level of anxiety about social interaction at various points in our lives. Ask friends and family members you trust about their experiences with this kind of anxiety, or Google it—you’ll find that it’s completely normal and nothing to be ashamed of.

Once you’ve accepted your own feelings and gotten out of your shame spiral, it’s time to fake it ’til you make it. When we talked about confidence in Chapter 1, we told you this was horrible advice. And we stand by that—for building confidence. But for getting over intense nervousness and conversation anxiety, it actually works very well.

Why?

Because most of you are fucking terrible at evaluating your own social skills, and the reality is that you’re probably not doing as badly as you think. The research pretty clearly shows that you are only marginally better than chance at understanding how others see you. And if you’re laboring under the illusion that everyone can see how insanely anxious you are, think again: most of us are so focused on ourselves and our own issues that we aren’t inclined to pay much attention to yours.

That might sound a little cynical, but it’s actually an opportunity for improvement, because this is precisely where “fake it ’til you make it” comes in.

To fake it effectively, get an image in your head of someone who has the social skills and confidence that you want, and act the way you think they would act in your situation.

This generally means having a tall, confident posture, smiling more, using expansive gestures, speaking in a lower tone of voice, and all the behaviors that are consistently associated with socially confident people.

And guess what will happen if you do this? Not only will pretty much everyone accept your outward portrayal of social confidence at face value, but your body will actually respond to your “fake” behavior as if it is real confidence, as well (this is actually how your hormones work—they often follow behavior, rather than cause it). You’ll actually start to feel more confident in short little bursts.

String enough of these bursts together over time and it will create a snowball effect of social feedback that turns your fake, short-lived confidence in social situations into real, sustained confidence. That isn’t just the recipe for social confidence; that’s how you build confidence, period.

What if you aren’t good at conversation at all, so the “fake it ’til you make it” strategy doesn’t work? If that sounds more like you, there are three main ways to un-suck:

1. Practice with non-mating conversations.

The best place to practice conversation is with women who are completely platonic or desexualized: family members, girlfriends of your friends, any woman who couldn’t be a potential mate. This removes the pressure to perform and allows you to focus on the task at hand: learning how to have an enjoyable conversation that works.

If you don’t have access to female family members, or this practice isn’t working for you, there are any number of low-pressure environments you can seek out to practice conversation. One of the best places to start, believe it or not, is an old persons’ home. Most assisted living facilities are full of lonely old people with nothing to do but sit there and wait for death. Those places are constantly looking for volunteers to spend time with the residents. The social pressure couldn’t get much lower than that.

And, bonus, you can often find out amazing things about people—like the fact that maybe one of them has a hot granddaughter your age who has a soft spot for guys who get along with mee-maw and pee-paw.

2. Start with low-stakes mating contexts.

Once you feel confident in your basic conversational skills, (and some of you already do), you can move into conversations in a mating context.

This does not mean go to a loud bar and walk up to the hottest woman you’ve ever seen. Start with low-stakes mating scenarios. If you’ve taken our advice about mating markets and social groups, you should be in several social situations every week, meeting lots of new women just by virtue of doing new things (e.g., improv class, charity work, yoga). Those places are perfect low-stakes venues with organic opportunities to talk to women.

Another great place to practice is the mall, or any place where women are paid to talk to people. Your goal in these situations is to see if you can keep a good conversation going with someone who “has” to talk to you anyway.

The operative word there is “good.” Bogarting the time of a salesgirl who works on commission at the Hollister store is not good. Naturally extending your interaction with the cute cashier for a beat or two is much better.

3. Just have fun out there.

Most men labor under a fundamental misunderstanding when it comes to sex and conversation: they see the act of talking to women only as a means for getting sex, which is a really shitty strategy not just for her, but for YOU.

Making the conversation transactional in this way sets you up for failure (which reduces your confidence), makes conversing harder (because you’re hiding your agenda), and dredges up all sorts of shame and guilt issues that many of us have around sex.

Instead, the best way to get better at having great conversations with women is to reframe the entire purpose of talking in the first place:

When talking to women, make your only goal to have entertaining and fun conversations with them, and nothing else.

This is one of the most powerful “hacks” we know. It has helped thousands of men become very successful at mating conversations (Tucker counts this single insight as the primary source of his success with women).

We’re not saying you shouldn’t allow or want other things to happen. Of course you should. If you and the girl decide to go on a date, or to have sex, or anything else, that’s great. But that shouldn’t be the goal of the conversation. The goal should be to entertain yourselves, and the results will be a consequence of how well you execute that goal.

Changing your approach to “just have fun out there” has a number of immediate benefits. It builds conversational confidence instantly, it reduces awkwardness and makes conversation flow better, it enhances your attractiveness, and it makes it easier to judge whether she is interested in you.

If you’re like a lot of the guys we’ve talked to about this, your next (and hopefully final) question about conversation is probably something like “that all sounds great, but then how do you segue to the sex part and close the deal?”

The answer (since you clearly managed to forget it in the space of a page) is, don’t focus on that! You’re not selling a car. So brass tacks, honey. What’s it gonna take to get you inside one of these beauties?

You’ll be surprised to find how much sexier conversation can become when you stop treating it as a means to sex or a sales close, and start treating it as an enjoyable activity in its own right, just like foreplay—because at the end of the day, all mating conversation is about sex at some level.

Sex is the subtext for every interaction you have with a woman; the sexual gap is right there between you, unspoken but palpable. Neither of you is really looking for a new buddy. Neither of you is dying to talk about the weather, or Whole Foods prices, or CrossFit (okay maybe those people are—they never shut up about it). What you’re both doing is unconsciously feeling each other out, and good conversation is how that happens. The better you get at it, the more often feeling out turns to feeling up.

Takeaways

• Traditional conversation is about information, persuasion and argumentation. In a mating context however, conversation is about indirectly signaling your underlying traits.

• There are eight basic rules for good conversation:

1. Be a good host.

2. SOFTEN your body language.

3. Establish commonality.

4. Gauge and respond to feedback.

5. Don’t act too excited or too aloof.

6. Ask questions and actively listen to answers.

7. Respond with validation, insight, or debate.

8. Connect with vulnerability.

 

• To get better at conversation, you must address any negative emotions affecting your confidence and understand that everyone has suffered from some degree of social anxiety at some point in their lives.

• “Fake it ’til you make it” works wonders for overcoming nervousness and conversational anxiety.

• The key to better, more successful mating conversations is to reframe the purpose of talking to women: it can’t be about getting sex; it must be about having fun and entertaining yourselves. Changing your approach to “just have fun” makes everything easier and increases your chances for mating success.