Beginning: 12:17 p.m.
The East
ZEITZLER: In general it appears that the encirclement along the Don is now starting against the northern wing—a tank group with (numerous) tank corps, up here in this area. Manstein is bringing up the 7th Panzer Division. He is also taking the 3rd and the 11th Panzer Divisions over here. The 3rd Panzer Division is marching toward Rostov. … Of course, it could get very difficult up there. This thing (with reference to the map): He’s making a mistake with a secondary action. It could, of course, be connected—like a collapse. Which is why I came beforehand,1 because I wanted to speak to you again once more about this important issue.2 In general, the situation is now such that our offensive group in Khar’kov is being built up. One division will soon be ready, (the other) on the 12th.3 We formed it here in order to push down here, to clear up this thing here and to (relieve) it. (It may be that we now) have to take it up above, at least one division. That would not be ideal. It totally depends: first, there is a huge amount of fuel required here. … Now, it depends: if we have to drive them up above, of course, this salient (down below is endangered)…this salient, of course, only temporarily. But then there is also an unpleasant situation up here.
(ZEITZLER): I always worried about that. With the 3rd Panzer Division he has advanced quite well, and everything that is coming in is of extremely high quality.
THE FÜHRER: How is it going now with the 13th [Panzer Division]?4
ZEITZLER: Down here it seems that all the movements are going very well and are drawing near relatively quickly. The 3rd [Panzer] should now approach to here, and the 11th [Panzer] will follow. The … arrives in this area this evening and should come through in one push to this area up here.
THE FÜHRER: We want to make sure that we can still ... them
ZEITZLER: Yes! In any case, I consider it correct to attempt to put them in up here.
THE FÜHRER: Is he going over here with the 7th Panzer Division?
ZEITZLER: Yes, he’s going over there with the 7th Panzer Division.
THE FÜHRER: There are now 16 trains of the 335th [Infantry] Division there?
ZEITZLER: Yes! It was a little slower again, because of bomb damage along the way. [—] And now up here the question arises, … to relieve…the cavalry corps. Then we would have something to provide cover below.
THE FÜHRER: The relief takes longer than the new arrivals.
ZEITZLER: … But huge tension remains in any case, and I wanted to ask (For this reason,) that the economic program not be affected.5
THE FÜHRER: I will think about that. But I can say one thing: Then there would no longer be the possibility of ending the war through offensive action in the East. We have to bear that in mind.
(ZEITZLER: Yes!)
THE FÜHRER: Because I can’t do it without the materiel. I can’t do it with those people. Then I may have the people, but I have no materiel. The question is: what do we want now? We (now) have a width of 5 km,6 but I can give the people guns and ammunition. Then I have only a 3 km width, but I have no more guns or ammunition. If you think we can fight at 3 km better without ammunition than at 5 km with ammunition, the calculation is correct.
ZEITZLER: Yes, that’s a good question. At the moment it’s not important, but it will be later.
THE FÜHRER: No, now as well as later! (At the same time) the whole defense production program becomes invalid. Our whole tank program that is made of electro steel then drops out immediately … (Also) our gun program. Instead of 600 per month we could then produce only 150 guns. The large ammunition program is (eliminated) immediately as well. At that moment it drops swiftly. (It won’t happen gradually); it will happen rapidly. I wouldn’t win anything with that. If I were to go back, I would lose the …, there will be utter confusion, and the enemy would push in behind. We’ve also had those experiences while retreating.
ZEITZLER: That’s quite clear to me. But if we had not conducted the retreat, it would have become even worse. They had to move back there and down here—here by the panzer army.
THE FÜHRER: I’ve said since the beginning—for me it was completely clear: If the action can’t be undertaken here, then there are only the two bridgeheads. That is obvious. If (it had been done like that), as the good Manstein wanted, they would not have been able to withdraw and everything would have fallen to pieces. If I had given in to Manstein, they would (not have returned). … (He would have) had not more panzer army nor would he have brought a Seventeenth Army back—everything would have collapsed. … I’ve always been concerned that he might stay here too long7 [—]
(ZEITZLER): And now I (thought) we might immediately bring the 337th [Infantry] Division up from France behind the 4th Panzer Division, with some of the 78th [Infantry] Division at the same time, in order to start forming a new block here. And now we have to see what happens with the advance of the SS units. If we take the “Reich” [SS Panzer Division]8 up there, they will surely restore the situation. But that would take a long time. … I would like to think that we have no other choice but to put them in down there.
THE FÜHRER: We will see. It depends on how it goes with the 4th Panzer Division. If the 4th Panzer Division gets off to a halfway good start [—]
ZEITZLER: There are 15 trains (on their way. Progress is slow) because they have destroyed everything with bombs; 7 trains should arrive today.
THE FÜHRER: When the 4th Panzer Division arrives (one unit will be there). Another unit will be there when the 337th [Infantry] Division comes behind it. And the 78th [Infantry Division] would come as well. With them, we’ll have (a group of forces that might) permit us to take hold of (this thing). We have to wait and see. If we can grab it with that, it’s [— ] True to form, they surrendered themselves.9 Because otherwise, you gather yourselves together, build an all-round defense, and shoot yourself with the last cartridge. If you imagine that a woman, after being insulted a few times, has so much pride that she goes out, locks herself in, and shoots herself dead immediately—then I have no respect for a soldier who (shrinks back from it and prefers) going into captivity. There I can only say: (I can understand it in a case) like General Giraud, where we come in, he gets out of the car, and is immediately captured.10 But [—]
ZEITZLER: I can’t understand it either. I still think that (it may not) be true—that he may be seriously wounded.
THE FÜHRER: No, it is true. The Russians will now … immediately … They will go to Moscow immediately, to the GRU [Military Intelligence Directorate], and they will give out orders that the northern pocket should surrender as well.11 This Schmidt12 will sign everything. A person who does not have courage at such a moment to take the step that everyone has to take once, will not have the strength to resist. He will develop a martyr complex. (With us) the intellect is cultivated too much and strength of character not enough …
ZEITZLER: One can’t actually explain how.
THE FÜHRER: Don’t say that! I had a letter [—]
Below received the letter.13 I can show it to you. There he said, “I reached the following judgment about those people”—and then it read: “Paulus14: Question mark; Seydlitz15: shoot him; Schmidt: shoot him.”
ZEITZLER: I have also heard bad things of Seydlitz.
THE FÜHRER: And below them: “Hube16—that man!” Of course, (one could say that it might have been) better if Hube had stayed inside and the others had gone out. But because people are still important and because we need the men for the entire war, I am really of the opinion that Hube will go out. In peacetime, 18,000 to 20,000 people chose suicide each year17 in the German Reich, without being in any such situation. Here a man can see how 50,000 to 60,000 of his soldiers die and defend themselves bravely to the end—how can he then surrender to the Bolsheviks?! Oh, that is [—]!
ZEITZLER: It’s something that we really can’t understand at all.
THE FÜHRER: But the first (doubt had already arisen earlier). That was the moment when it was said that he asked what he should do now.18 How can he even ask such a thing? So in the future, whenever a fortification is besieged and the commanding officer receives a demand to surrender, he is going to ask first: What shall I do now? [—]19 How easy he made it for himself!20 Or Becker21: He became confused when loading his weapon, made … and later on he shoots himself.22 How easy it is to do such a thing! The pistol—that is quite easy. What kind of cowardice it must be to flinch even from that! Ha! Better let yourself be buried alive! And in such a situation where he knows full well that his death is the requirement for holding the next pocket. Because if (he) gives (an example like that), you cannot expect the men to continue fighting.
ZEITZLER: There is no excuse. Then he has to shoot himself before, if the nerves threaten to fail.
THE FÜHRER: If the nerves fail, there is nothing (left but to say:) I couldn’t take it any longer—and shoot oneself. There you can also say: The man has to shoot himself, just like (in earlier times the generals) threw themselves onto their swords when they saw that all was lost. That is a matter of course. Even Varus ordered to the slaves: Kill me now!
ZEITZLER: I still think that they might have done it, and (that the Russians only claim) they all gave themselves over into captivity.
THE FÜHRER: No!
ENGEL: The peculiar thing is—if I may say it—that they did not announce (that Paulus was captured seriously wounded.) Then they could say tomorrow he died of his wounds.
THE FÜHRER: Do we have precise news about his wounds?23 [—] The tragic thing has happened now. That might be a warning.
ENGEL: The names of the generals can’t all be correct.
THE FÜHRER: During this war no one else will become a field marshal. That will all be done after the end of the war. One should not count ones chickens before they hatch.24
ZEITZLER: We were so strongly convinced about the end that we … our last joy …
THE FÜHRER: We had to assume it would end heroically.
ZEITZLER: One could not imagine anything else.
THE FÜHRER: And in this human environment, how could one act differently?! There I must say that every soldier is an idiot who risks his life, and risks his life again and again. If a little “pussy” is overwhelmed, I can still understand that.
ZEITZLER: The troop commander has it much easier. Everyone looks at him. For him it is simple to shoot himself. It is difficult for the ordinary man.
THE FÜHRER: If the little worm, on which everything is falling, says in such a situation, … and lets himself be captured, then I can understand that. But I must say: How heroically have the … One cannot argue with that. Of course, also many Germans! [—] and that we don’t achieve it with our intellectually superior command cadre, our high-quality soldiers and our weapons that are still in the end superior to the Russians.’ Nevertheless, we were always superior, disregarding Stalingrad. When I heard it tonight, I had Puttkamer find out if the news was already out. If (it had not been announced) via radio broadcast, (I would have) stopped it immediately.25 It hurts me so much because the heroism of so many soldiers is destroyed by a single spineless weakling—and the man is going to do that now. You have to imagine it: He comes to Moscow, and just imagine the “rat cage”!26 He’ll sign everything there. He will make confessions and appeals. You will see: They will walk down the road completely disregarding any principle—to the deepest abyss. In this case one can also say: An evil deed generates new evil again and again.
ENGEL: One thing, tomorrow Major Zitzewitz27 is scheduled to (speak about Stalingrad) to the domestic and foreign press. Should that be cancelled?
THE FÜHRER: No, …
ENGEL: I come to that point because there, of course, questions will be asked, among others a question …The best thing would be to … only very generally [—]
(THE FÜHRER): … If somebody knows something, we don’t know about; it cannot be determined exactly. But with soldiers, the primary thing is always the matter of principle, and if we cannot cultivate that, if we breed only pure intellectual acrobats and intellectual athletes—mental athletes—then we never will get that species which alone can stand the heavy blows of fate. That is decisive.
ZEITZLER: Yes, also in the General Staff. For the first time, I gave the uniform to an officer28 who had not gone through general staff officer training because his preparation for the withdrawal of the division was as brilliant as the General Staff does it. It also does not matter that he has been in the course only 8 weeks.29 It had an immediate effect. I immediately said: as of today, you are a general staff officer.
THE FÜHRER: Yes, we have to take bold, courageous people who are also prepared (to risk their lives), just like every soldier risks his life. What does that mean, “Life”? Life … people; the individual indeed has to die. What remains alive beyond the individual is the people. But how one can fear this moment—through which he (can free) himself from misery—(if) duty (does not) hold him back in this valley of suffering! Well! [—]
They also reported that Paulus was captured. I want to have it sorted out: captured and missing. If they break in and take it without a fight, everyone knows they’ve been captured. The others must be reported as missing. …
ZEITZLER: …The attacks did not continue today. The report from (Kurzbach30) about the withdrawal is very reasonable—the order for it. He’s also arranged it very sensibly. To be sure, he has sent a bit too much paper about how they are doing everything, but he did think about all those things. I don’t know if it interests you. I can leave it here if it does. He has divided it into different stages. That is definitely good. And he also (planned) the immediate steps (correctly): that the thing here is thoroughly covered, and the ammunition goes in here, and also there—but first, that whatever comes from here, … does not go in there under any circumstances. [—] Then I can leave it here.
THE FÜHRER: I do not know how to proceed in Paulus’ case. (We must give the commander in the northern pocket an order that he must hold it under all circumstances. The pocket must be held until the end. [—])
(ZEITZLER: Then you agree) that I should do it this way?
THE FÜHRER: Yes! I’ll come back to that thought again. The Romanian general Lascar fell with his men. I’m glad that I gave him the Oak Leaves.31 How can such a thing happen? When I heard about that at 2:30 last night—I had gone to bed early—I had Puttkamer come right away in order to find out (if the radio report had gone out already. Because the Russians reported): Marshal Paulus captured with his entire staff. The whole staff surrendered. Now the Russians leave [—]
ZEITZLER: Just what I suspected! I thought they would misuse the dead Paulus … And now it’s even worse.
THE FÜHRER: He will soon speak via radio—you will see that.32 Seydlitz and Schmidt will speak on the radio. They will lock them into rat cellars, and two days later they will have broken them, and then they will speak immediately. A beautiful woman—who really was a first-rate beauty—is (insulted) with (a single word. She says afterward), because of some trifle: “Then I can go; I am superfluous.” … (replies:) “Then go!” Afterward, the woman leaves, writes farewell letters, (and shoots herself).33 [—] Did the wounding occur before Jaenecke’s34 departure or afterward?
ZEITZLER: I want to check on that. I’ll phone Jaenecke, because he would know if it had happened beforehand.
THE FÜHRER: We have to confirm that! Then we have to take the position that the staff also fought to the last, and that they only gave in to the enemy’s superior strength (and were taken into captivity) when they were wounded or overpowered.
ZEITZLER: That is surely what the majority of the staff did.
THE FÜHRER: We have to say that it was not a capitulation but an overpowering.
ZEITZLER: We can also write in: “The Russians will describe it differently”—that way the world press will get it from us first.
THE FÜHRER: (That they) had not received any supplies for months and that (therefore the Russians) succeeded in overwhelming some of them.
ZEITZLER: I agree that this direction is the right one.
THE FÜHRER: It is just the beginning. I would guess that in eight days at the latest [—]
(General Zeitzler excuses himself: 1:02 p.m.)
Continuation of the conference at 1:05 p.m. with the usual circle of participants.)
THE FÜHRER: Can I get Below?
CHRISTIAN: I don’t know if he drove to Leipzig today.
[A relief operation for the Sixth Army, which has been surrounded in Stalingrad since December 23, can no longer be considered. Yesterday, on January 31, Field Marshal Paulus surrendered. Only in the northern pocket is the remainder of the XI Army Corps still holding out.]
February 1, 1943
JODL: Concerning the Russian report, we are now checking carefully to see if there are any mistakes in it. Because a single mistake—a general who could not possibly have been there—would show that the whole thing was made up from a list that they captured somewhere and then published.
THE FÜHRER: (They report) that they captured Paulus, as well as Schmidt and Seydlitz.
JODL: I don’t know about Seydlitz. They’re not sure whether he’s in the northern pocket. That’s what will now be determined through a radio inquiry. Which generals exactly are in the northern pocket?
THE FÜHRER: He was surely with Paulus.35 [—] I want to tell you something: I do not understand a man like (Paulus), who does not prefer death. The heroism of so many tens of thousands of men, officers and generals is wiped out (by a man like that,) who, when the moment comes, does not possess the character to do what a weak woman has done.
JODL: But I’m still not quite sure if that’s right. [—]
(THE FÜHRER): … The man and the woman were together there. Later the man died of his illness. Then I received a letter from that woman; she begged me to care for the children. It was not possible for her to continue living, despite her children. … Then she shot herself. The woman did that; she found the strength—and soldiers do not find the strength! You will see: It won’t take eight days before Seydlitz and Schmidt and also Paulus speak on the radio.
JODL: I am firmly convinced of that.
THE FÜHRER: They are now taken into the Lubyanka, and there rats will eat them. How can somebody be (so cowardly)? I don’t understand it.
JODL: I still have doubts.
THE FÜHRER: I don’t, unfortunately. Do you know—I also don’t believe anymore in the wounds that (Paulus supposedly received). That doesn’t seem to be true either. Because they still have to expect that they [—]
What should we do then? Personally, it hurts me the most that I still did that—promoted him to field marshal. I wanted to give him the last (happiness). That’s the last field marshal I will (make) during (this war). One should not praise the day until it’s over. I don’t understand that at all. If you see so many (men) die—I really must say how easy it was for our …; he did not consider anything. That is completely ridiculous. So many men have to die, and then a man like that goes out and besmirches the heroism of so many others at the last minute. (He could have) delivered (himself from every misery) and reached eternity and entered into the national immortality—but he preferred going to Moscow. How can (there even be a choice)? It’s just crazy.
JODL: That’s why I still have doubts [—]
(THE FÜHRER): … just as if I were to say today: I’ll give a fortification to General Förster. Then I know immediately that he’ll be (the first one to) pull down the flag.36 There are others who wouldn’t do that. It’s tragic that in such a moment heroism (is defiled) so terribly like that.
JESCHONNEK: I still consider it possible that the Russians (reported) that intentionally. Their work is very refined.
THE FÜHRER: They will speak on the radio in eight days.
JESCHONNEK: The Russians will even manage to get (somebody else) to speak.
THE FÜHRER: No, they will speak personally over the radio. You will hear it right away. No, they will all speak personally on the radio! They will first order the men in the pocket to surrender, and will say the most awful things against the German Armed Forces. You have to bear in mind: (they come) to Moscow, to the Lubyanka, and are being “treated” there. If a person doesn’t have the courage in such an hour [—] I also already told Zeitzler that he must give an order to Heitz, telling him to hold the northern pocket.
KEITEL: He was in the southern pocket, and Heitz was not mentioned (in the Russian report).37
THE FÜHRER: Then he must be dead if he was not mentioned.
JODL: Yes, and because of that we must also (inquire) and establish who is in the northern pocket now. If there are names in it38 of people who are in the northern pocket, then it must be a list that they found somewhere and published. On the other hand, (it is already a fact) that they have not mentioned a man who certainly fell—Hartmann—who was in the southern pocket.
KEITEL: He was killed four days ago.39
JODL: Yes!
THE FÜHRER: If Heitz was in the southern pocket and was not mentioned … I am convinced that the whole staff simply surrendered obediently [—]
Weapons for Italy
THE FÜHRER: I spoke to Schmundt to find out (whether we) have the people to do it. We’ll give the Italians (weapons), and the weapons will find their way to people who will pass them on to the enemy, and before long we will be attacked with them. It makes no difference whether these are weapons seized from the Russians or others—at any case, the weapons will soon be turned against us. I asked Schmundt whether we have the personnel to do something, if I could propose to the Duce—if I meet with him—to establish 6 Fascist divisions, which he would take out of the M-divisions40 and we would establish, organize and train in Germany. They should consist of only tried and true Fascists. We could help them with the command and provide them with weapons. I’m thinking here of Italy, too, because to him two such divisions—one in Rome and the other (in northern Italy) are not less than … God knows what … Let’s see, what the Duce … thinks. We keep having to (supply) weapons anyway. There is no point in continuing like we have been. I can be quite frank (with the Duce), because he has … told, that I’m going to tell him the whole truth about (the losses) in the East. I’ll tell him: if you … set up from scratch, you won’t achieve anything. Of course, (you could) make up for it, provided you (had a) decent officer corps. If you don’t have that (and) if you don’t start from scratch, the new formation will be doomed from the very beginning. In that case you would have to begin with (Adam and) Eve, otherwise the work would be useless. He has (good) people among them, of course, but they cannot prevent the whole … The M-battalions were included in the various divisions, but they are worn down there and don’t have any value or impact. This will only change when he himself establishes 6 divisions to start with, and then 8, 10, or 12 divisions. If we have to supply weapons to them, then let’s supply them for these units. They will be excellently armed and give him support in his own country. As soon as he has four such divisions at his disposal, he will be in a position to have his way and start disbanding the pathetic army divisions or integrate other officers … in order to bring about a gradual improvement. (Without them) he can’t do it. (This is) in our own interest. If there were Fascist (units) trained by us in North Africa, they would be better than four such divisions, (who because of) their incapable commanders and their … take off at the first gunshot. … told me: One sees among the people many wonderful …; but they did not succeed in … separating them. They just … around everywhere … and don’t have any zeal. The officers have no sense of responsibility; their only thought is to go (to) the coffee shop.
Japan
JODL: The military attaché from Tokyo will give you an overview of the distribution of Japanese forces.
THE FÜHRER: The Japanese have had bad luck with this big convoy, if the reports are true. The convoy seems to have been broken up.41
JODL: Regarding the overall strength, the military attaché reports the following figures: 63 divisions, 6 infantry brigades, 2 armored divisions, 4 motorized brigades and 18 reserve divisions of the reserve army at home. The Kwantung Army Group has apparently been weakened. At least we had earlier supposed their number to be greater. On the northeastern front there are 15 divisions and 2 armored divisions. There is another army, which includes the Manchurian divisions, further to the south: 2 infantry divisions, 2 infantry brigades, one cavalry division, one motorized brigade.
THE FÜHRER: And these three?
JODL: These three belong to Korea. Well, this … the Korea Army and the Peking Army can be brought in.
THE FÜHRER: Then it adds up to 20 divisions after all.
JODL: Yes. We had assumed there would be more, namely … divisions.
THE FÜHRER: What are the estimates?
JODL: According to estimates, there are 20 infantry divisions, 4 brigades … cavalry divisions, 2 armored brigades and 3 motorized brigades.
THE FÜHRER: Those men are the best the Japanese have.
JODL: These are excellent divisions. There is the China Army Group and the Southern Group with 14 infantry divisions. Some of them are brigades. Then there is the Chinese National Army, which is included at a lower fighting value. Here there are 8 divisions and 2 infantry brigades deployed in the northern part. The Kwantung Army, with 4 infantry divisions and 2 infantry brigades, is also part of the China Army Group. The 1,500,000-man Chunking Force is deployed in the entire area. Next is the Southern Army Group with one army in Rangoon, which used to contain 5 divisions and has now been increased to 6. Then, behind the lines, the covering forces (and) 5 Thai divisions. One division with limited strength is stationed in Indochina, and another division is in Singapore. The forces on other islands are relatively weak. There are two divisions on Sumatra and more than one division of occupying forces on Java. Weak occupation forces on Borneo and Celebes. One army made up of two divisions is stationed in Manila. The new Southeast Army Group has now been established; it is comprised of two armies in Rabaul, which were recruited primarily from these forces and will now be transferred there. [—] The evacuation of Guadalcanal was obviously successful,42 and a new Eastern Front is being established. To this end they are launching several attacks in order to bring the enemy down on New Guinea. The enemy has two American and two Australian divisions on New Guinea, plus 5 American divisions, one Marine division and a division from New Zealand on the eastern islands. Three American divisions and one from New Zealand are stationed in the New Hebrides.
THE FÜHRER: That makes 14 to 15 American divisions in all.
JODL: He deployed major forces on the Aleutian Islands as well. The Japanese limited themselves to keeping one reinforced regiment up there. But they don’t have an airstrip. The number of aircraft reported for the enemy is not very large either. There are 8 British divisions and some 350 aircraft and 2 Chungking divisions in Burma, and there are some 250 aircraft on the Solomon Islands, 350 aircraft on New Guinea, 500 aircraft in Australia, 200 aircraft in … and 100 in the New Hebrides. The Japanese are convinced that the main action in 1943 will continue to take place in the European theater of operations.
THE FÜHRER: That doesn’t please us greatly.
JODL: The evacuation of Guadalcanal was successful.
THE FÜHRER: We must not attach undue importance to what the Japanese say. I don’t believe a word.
JODL: One cannot believe them, for they are the only people who intentionally tell you a big lie with an expression of sincerity.
THE FÜHRER: They’ll tell you a pack of lies—their reports and representations are calculated on something that proves to be deception later on.
HEWEL: The general public in America believes this to be the main theater of operations.
THE FÜHRER: I read a statement from Dieckhoff.43 He disputes this. There isn’t a bit of truth in it. If you want to win over the Americans, you only need to say the following: First, the war is being waged in America’s interests; second, the British Empire will be liquidated; third, the Japanese are the main enemy. With these remarks you will get an overwhelming majority. The Jews are against it, but they44 have the overwhelming majority. The English are now starting to complain (more and more) about the political developments, as they are afraid that things will turn against their empire.
HEWEL: It would be interesting to learn something about the condition of the American divisions in North Africa. Neurath45 arrived from Tunis last night. He tells interesting stories. He questioned some American prisoners of war and (says) that they tell crazy stories. Most of them came over in order to earn money or for the excitement and adventure of it to see something different and be a part of it. No trace of political aims. They are just rowdies who will disappear quickly—they will not be able to get through a crisis.46 He says he talked to hundreds of them. None of them had any political convictions or any great ideas.
THE FÜHRER: They will never become Rome. America will never be the Rome of the future. Rome was a peasants’ state.
HEWEL: But the Americans have good human material somewhere.
JODL: That is only an outward appearance.
THE FÜHRER: Not as much as one might imagine. They live in the few regions where the Europeans are dominating. But on no account do they have the large … centers. The farmers are impoverished. I saw photographs. Never before have I seen such pitiful and stunted farmers— nothing but uprooted beings wandering around.47
CHRISTIAN: No intellect, no inner (attitude).
JODL: Nothing like that.
HEWEL: You only have to look at the posters they use to publicize the war. They are impossible!
THE FÜHRER: There is no doubt that of all the Anglo-Saxons the English are the best.
JODL: With the English you have the feeling that they fight for their country and empire, but with the Americans, you don’t have that feeling.
THE FÜHRER: That might explain why the English say that they can always handle the Americans.
HEWEL: That is a very thoughtless attitude. They cannot “deal with” them, if only because they are economically and in every other respect dependent on them. But they consider themselves superior to the Americans both politically and militarily to such an extent that they say, “We will recapture the lost territory in 10 years.” This is what the English are saying. Very thoughtless indeed.
THE FÜHRER: There is one thing, Jodl, that is also clear, when it comes to strength, it is not only the population that counts, but also the size of the territory. Just look at the Chinese empire. The fighting has been going on for five years and part of the country is occupied, but the whole block is still standing.
JODL: And, what is more, with hardly any weapons.
THE FÜHRER: This will definitely be the end, unless we can expand our space. Space is one of the most important military factors. You can only operate if you have space. The wars of the future will be won by those who have space. This is the bad luck of the French. During a single offensive last year we occupied more territory than during all of our Western offensives. So France was finished in 6 weeks, while we are enduring here in a huge territory. If we had experienced such a crisis along the old border on the Oder-Warthe bend, Germany would have been finished. But here in the East we can do something about it. We have a theater enabling us to operate.
JODL: Things have changed. Germany was an expanse during the Roman wars. In the Middle Ages, armies marched through Germany in all directions, and now, in the era of tanks and aircraft [—]
THE FÜHRER: It does not take more than an hour and a quarter to go from one end of the old Reich territory to the other in a fast plane.
JODL: But the Russian space is a space that is impossible even for aircraft, as illustrated by the industrial region in the Urals. You can’t get there.
CHRISTIAN: It takes 2½ hours to fly from Cologne to Königsberg.
THE FÜHRER: If the aircraft has a speed of 600 km per hour, it takes 1¼ hour from Stettin to Munich. In the pre-war era, Germany was nothing more than Schleiz-Greiz,* etc., as far as the fragmentation of German territory was concerned. It was ridiculous compared with the rest of the world. Here we speak of entire continents: America, East Asia, or Russia. And Australia! Seven million people have an entire continent to themselves. This was one of the craziest proposals: the Prince of Windsor said back then that the Germans should settle in northern Australia.48 He always was in favor of our getting that region. But then we would have settled there and one day the English would have taken it.
HEWEL: Australian agriculture is German! The German element has been the most creative one in Australia.49
THE FÜHRER: That is precisely why they want the Germans in that region. I told him that we do not attach much importance to it. Australia to the Australians! [—] I don’t believe what the Japanese are saying.
JODL: The statements do not specify what they are doing there. On the other hand, they are saying that Vladivostok is unbearable in the long run. To avoid a fragmentation of forces, the Japanese won’t attack the Soviet Far East right now, unless American bases were to be set up there or the Soviet Union collapses. In any case, the Japanese war economy is prepared for a long war. According to them, they do not think that 1943 would be the decisive year.
THE FÜHRER: If they are prepared for a long war, then they will have to dig in there, because the Americans will certainly establish bases in that area.
HEWEL: They will have to go to northern Australia.
THE FÜHRER: It is surprising that Stalin recently gave the Americans a slap in the face.50
HEWEL: I don’t imagine that Churchill congratulated Stalin for it.
JODL: They must move in here.
HEWEL: Yes, this is the area from which they get their raw materials—their resources and their wealth—and as long as these resources last, they will launch new attacks.
THE FÜHRER: Imagine how much the Japanese have accomplished in so short a period! It is ridiculous to believe that Japan is unable to put up more than 30 infantry divisions. Japan has a larger population than Germany in the territory of the old Reich. They should be able to establish 120 divisions. But we don’t really know how many they have in reality. It stands to reason that they don’t say how many they have, in order to be on the safe side. Then all of a sudden it turns out that they have not 15 but 30 infantry divisions up there.
JODL: You never know with the Japanese.
HEWEL: If they operate in this area, it is not a fragmentation of their forces. The operations are quite independent.
THE FÜHRER: The only issue for them on which I cannot give an opinion is the issue of tanks. Do they or don’t they have a modern tank? What was Oshima’s answer? I assume that this question was put to him.
HEWEL: He did not tell me.
THE FÜHRER: I believe he said that they do have modern tanks.
CHRISTIAN: He is not properly informed51 by his people. Their announcements on tanks are just as sparse as those regarding aircraft.
THE FÜHRER: They did not say anything about ships, either, and then all of a sudden there they were with the heaviest ships on earth.52 They did not speak about aircraft carriers, and suddenly it turns out that they have the largest number of aircraft carriers.53 However, after the war, they will have to mothball their large battleships, because then only planes will be used. Even over there all talk centers on aircraft.
HEWEL: The Japanese have been bombed repeatedly; for instance, near the Midway Islands and down there.54 They came too close.
THE FÜHRER: Nobody dares use such large ships anymore. What would be unpleasant for them would be if they couldn’t get control of it quickly, i.e., that it might become a base for submarine warfare. I am convinced that the Japanese will completely establish their base here before they start action. They will probably not engage in maritime traffic, but might start with a blockade. One thing is certain. That is something we most certainly will not find out. These people send an ambassador and another ambassador to Washington to moan there and they themselves have no idea what they’re talking about. I can imagine good old Kurusu waddling around there.55 He has no idea what’s going on and when he arrives at the White House, he is shouted at, “You’re playing dirty tricks.” The little Japanese was dumfounded, as he had no idea that Pearl Harbor had been attacked. They don’t say a word.56 I don’t say anything either.
HEWEL: Maybe they realized that it’s necessary to build tanks first.
CHRISTIAN: Large tanks are of no use in the jungle.
THE FÜHRER: We don’t drive around Yugoslavia in our heaviest tanks. Why should I take a Tiger to finish off a sniper? In view of the incredible Japanese secrecy and cleverness, in this regard, it is entirely conceivable that the Japanese have built heavy tanks, but do not use them for the time being so that the Russians don’t notice anything. One day, they will use them.57 So we should not be too concerned if they have two armored brigades and two armored divisions here because we can imagine what the Russians have there. They have been bled white three to five times already.
JODL: Whereas Japan has first-class troops.
THE FÜHRER: Yes, Russia has been bled white. If it were to start all of a sudden, one would assume it would crackle faster than elsewhere. Maybe they will do it quite differently and will push in this direction.58
CHRISTIAN: They got a thrashing in their border conflicts with the Russians.
THE FÜHRER: Only once.59 Stalin … had … They were encircled.
CHRISTIAN: Their air force also suffered.
THE FÜHRER. I don’t know about that. They drove back … all the attacks. There is only this single case, where they were ambushed. Stalin said, “I do not want to wage war against the Japanese, but if they raise a fight with us, they are mistaken, because we are also prepared.”
CHRISTIAN: That was at the time of the old Russian Army of the Far East.
THE FÜHRER: That was still one of the best ones. The Japanese have usually defeated the Russians, and they will continue to do so if they have nearly equivalent equipment. In this case, they waged war against the Chinese. The ship sent there was the Itsomu, launched in 1899—an old tub indeed.60 That was the flagship. They only deployed very old ships and did not attack a single ship. They saved their really good ones. We did not fire on the Westerplatte with our most modern ships, either.
JODL: He describes the armaments as follows: (Text is read.)
THE FÜHRER: If they plan something they will never tell us. And if they draw our attention to the fact that they are planning an operation in the south, one could more likely expect something in the north instead. I told the foreign minister, “Dear Ribbentrop, do whatever you are able to do, and whatever you are able to do, do it. They will take advantage of the time. They would be crazy if they didn’t. As long as they notice that forces are being withdrawn, they say … with Asian cunning. Let him bleed white. But the moment they realize that the situation could become stable here and reinforcements may be moved to the East, you’ll see swift action on their part and they will be there in time.”
* [NDT] Tiny principality in 18th-century Germany.
*****